Nutnfancy SHOT Show 2011: "Savage, Scared of No One"

Jerry makes a valid point. The Remington guys have a whole bunch of awesome aftermarket features, but they took a bad turn when they let the accountants in the factory. And another when the accountants took it over without consulting the designers first. Savage is now catching up with the aftermarket AND has the QC to back it up. Now if they had only thought a bit harder before coming out with the "Axis SS". Some baaaadddd juju goin' on there.
 
lejarretnoir said:
Which Savage design is improving custom actions? I didn't know Remington was cloning Savage. Which gun?
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The Marlin XS/XL7 series. Cerberus owns both groups and I believe a larger distributing company owns Cerberus and others.

EDIT: And the barrel nut is being used to keep headspace tight on custom Rems. I think Shilen made an action with a floating bolt head, barrel nut, and the 700 footprint. Maximum versitility.
 
lejarretnoir said:
Which Savage design is improving custom actions? I didn't know Remington was cloning Savage. Which gun?
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Dont have the links but there is at least one more custom action maker besides Shilen using the floating bolt head now.

Shilen's Hybrid action/rifle won 2010 Editors Choice Award for Best rifle. A few people thought it works well.

The barrel nut is not such a wacky idea anymore. Rems new sniper rig uses one and I would love to see if they also have a floating bolt head as they say cartridge family changes can be done in the field - I doubt they want GI Joe to carry complete bolts????

Yes, the Marlin XL/XS7 are a very nice copy of the Savage - barrel nut, floating bolt heads, similar extractor/ejector layout, same anti bind set up (maybe Savage is making their bolt heads????)

Been told that the thread pattern and size on these actions is the same as the Savage (have no verified personally). Why not? There is nothing wrong and that would give them access to all those barrel nuts massed produced for dirt cheap.

The recoil lug is similar and has the same divit to keep it from moving on the receiver.

The trigger group is different but has the same accutrigger/glock/XD trigger safety tab. And the bolt shroud is more inline with a Rem.

I am sure the driver from companies like Marlin isn't some great paradigm shift in accuracy but more about reducing assembly costs. Conventional shoulder headspacing is just getting too expensive.

I am sure we will see more examples in the coming year.

As the Savage rep said, major parts assembly on a Savage takes about 1 1/2 min. That has got to keep their costs way down for sure.

Jerry
 
Not sure, but I think it was Browning who came up with the barrel nut and maybe before him, so yes it's nothing new or wacky. To save production costs and make quick change barrels, absolutely, aka machine gun barrels.

I'd really like to see one of these hybrid custom actions. I can see where all this going though.
Conventional shoulder is indeed more costly and eliminates the need for gunsmithing down the road. So to speak, anyone can build a custom rifle with some basic skills and eliminate the gunsmith entirely. I can't argue that.

I can see why people are so pro Savage with prefit barrels becoming mainstream and the barrel nut. It makes sense economically and the average gun owner can do it himself.

Interesting parallel. A new supply and demand.
 
Hybrid - Rem on the outside, Savage on the inside. A perfect marriage.

It just makes so much sense - Rem footprint cause there are how many stock options?

Rem style triggers - way better set up to get match triggers with superb products right off the shelf.

Base options - about a tie but why not Rem, no issue with supply.

Not a fan of a permanent bolt handle as this increases cost during mods but that is the only concession to the Rem.

Savage - floating bolt head - lots of benefits in ease of assembly and production (must be cheaper too), lots of benefits when the trigger is pulled. Can easily change between cartridge families and ANY cartridge family can be easily adapted.

Better shaped recoil lug - easier to bed, stronger, tabbed so they index with the action making barrel swaps a cinch. Low cost to produce and less chance to get a warped one.

Barrel nut - SO much cheaper to set up production rifles with this method. Infinitely adjustable so custom headspace is easily done at home. Barrel swaps are easy and prefit barrels can be made on mass reducing costs without any loss of performance.

The only downside to the nut is that the diameter of the barrel must be smaller. For F class and shooting boomers, overheating a barrel is more likely vs a larger barrel. A barrel block reduces/eliminates this problem and this addition offers some very positive benefits to balancing these honking big pipes and removing stress from the action.

So a hybrid is truly the best of both worlds maximizing the positives and eliminating so much costs. Shilen went to their present hybrid as a byproduct of making so many prefits for Savages. Eventually, they decided to try it themselves in their conventional BR rigs. The positive results have lead them to their top rated product.

I really can't see how production factory rifles can continue to be made with shouldered headspacing and keep up with the price points of the competition. The modularity of the Savage and now Marlin have got to excite the bean counters too.

MSRP $300, street price way less AND everyone made money. Best part, the rifles function and shoot.

A game change for sure (yes, that name goof is something they will need to consider). Let's see how long before there is a shift in the industry as a whole.....

Jerry
 
Jerry, imagine this.
If a hybrid action can deliver .000 groups in benchrest, floating boltheads, quick change barrel nut system and bolt in type [no bedding required] stock/barrel block, then anyone's 16 yr old daughter can assemble a true BR grade match rifle.

I suppose it will be the end of conventional gunsmithing. I think most gun owners would be pleased about getting rid of another middle man and saving money there. Gunsmithing will slowly become a thing of the past as anyone just needs a spare parts kit and DIY.

It will just be a matter of time before all the gun, barrel and action makers jump on the bandwagon and produce everything pre-fit and modular. I think this is where Remington and others will have a hard time adjusting to this.

Interesting times! Savage is on the prowl and smacking down, Remington trying to defend themselves in court and press.
 
Just do a search at the number of barrel makers that now offer prefits for Savage rifles. That list has tripled in the last few years and I just don't see it stopping.

if this trend continues, it can actually be a huge bonus for specialty gunsmiths. With preset specs, a gunsmith can produce a unique barrel exactly as the customer wants - never has to see the action.

AND it can be made to same high precision as he would for a conventional set up. Labour is charged either way.

What he may loose in the blue printing and general action tune up, he can gain multi fold increase in barrels made. He usually looses this anyways with modern custom actions.

That is exactly what happened with Shilen. They did this several years back when they had production space and due to alot of prodding from a few Savage dealers. The response blew away anything they had planned for and the volume continues to surge today.

They have increased their savage production capacity now, three times and they are still way behind. With every new trend, manf are shy to just rush out and go bonkers but if Savage rifle sales continue on their upward trend, stuff for them will also follow.

For a local smith, they could keep a batch of barrels or align with a barrel supplier (hint, hint) and just crank them out as orders come in. Savage barrel swappers usual have an arsenal of barrels cause it is so easy to change.

A gunsmith could create stuff AND start a market - ummm, 16" threaded med contour tacticool in a 300 Whisper or 6.8 SPC or 7 TCU or 6.5 Grendel or whatever.

Short barrels, long barrels, fat barrels, thin barrels. Wildcats, oldies. Whatever....

The shift will be how to take advantage of the demand in barrels NOT installations.

Then there is still the massive vacuum of Savage stocks that needs to be filled. I'm working on it.

And accessories, parts, triggers, on, and on and on.

I would say, this is the biggest opportunity, IN CANADA, to make stuff for an exploding market ( and it is global ). For those that see the opportunity and tool up, their bank accounts will be pretty full.


I am more then happy to help....
Jerry
 
Jerry,
You don't need a gunsmith for that anymore. Just get a machine shop and CNC. Order a 100 barrels to spec and get it done. Same with aftermarket accessories. Gunsmiths aren't interested in churning out prefit barrels. That's just barrel making work IMO. Yep, more profit indeed!

I'll just go tinker with some old guns and let production take it's course. :)
 
If Savage is so good, (myself didn't have best experience with Savage) why I can not see any Savage use by military, serious government agencies?
 
PeterPan said:
If Savage is so good, (myself didn't have best experience with Savage) why I can not see any Savage use by military, serious government agencies?
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Probably still running on old contracts with Remington in USA. Military don't like to change too much when they have something working well enough. In due time that could change though. At least Canada went with Canadian action and barrels makers.

You might very well see Savage take over. That would eliminate many Armorers, cut costs and the average G.I could have a spare parts kit and fix it easily in the field. If it cuts cost and saves Governments a bundle you can bet they will look at it.
The Stoner M16 certainly revolutionized that. Look at the popularity of the AR-15 and modular design.
 
PeterPan said:
If Savage is so good, (myself didn't have best experience with Savage) why I can not see any Savage use by military, serious government agencies?
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Smaller govt and some US agencies use the Savage. that is why there is a savage LE line up in the first place. but we are talking way smaller budgets and smaller issue numbers. In dept where there is likely a mix of brands and makes. But the numbers are changing as the popularity and acceptance grows.

How many years ago was it a Leupold dominated market? How many years did it take NF to displace that? How many more before something else displaces it?

remember that the FBI did/still uses a HS platform albeit Rem in nature.

Uncle Same is wed to its history which creates a legacy. But the Rem has undergone some serious changes. Look at the new sniper platform MSR.

the barrels must swap, caliper change, modular bling, swapable this and that.

ie AR with a bolt.

Rem had to go with a barrel nut but a flanged barrel just like the AR. I have not been able to see a pic of the bolt but expect to see something like the floating/changeable bolt head.

So the TYPE, of useage is swinging towards ease of change and modularity. the Rem simply has to tweak a few things and it is in the same workings BUT then purist will shriek it is a watered down Savage.

As to gunsmiths producing custom product, that is on an individual basis and whatever floats their boat.

The market is changing so you either change with it or change somehow to be outside the crash zone.

Look how many Mauser 'smiths have evolved onto other makes.

How many smiths have taken the basics and come up with game shifting tech?

This is an evolution and you do what you will with it.

You can negate the value of the internet too but you would be in the forgotten minority...

Jerry
 
lejarretnoir said:
Jerry,
You don't need a gunsmith for that anymore. Just get a machine shop and CNC. Order a 100 barrels to spec and get it done. Same with aftermarket accessories. Gunsmiths aren't interested in churning out prefit barrels. That's just barrel making work IMO. Yep, more profit indeed!

I'll just go tinker with some old guns and let production take it's course. :)
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Of course you do. You still need someone versed in quality machining - not just production. someone that understand and is willing to put in the time for proper set up and alignment, cutting and finishing, throating and polishing.

the only difference is that this smith will not spin it onto that action.

I know of a custom action maker that keeps notes on each action so that he can produce finished barrels without needing the action. the customer just gives him the serial number, what barrel he wants and puff - $$$ a sale is made.

Now expand that to EVERY SINGLE action made by a major manf.

there will always be a difference between mass production and BR smith work. a ER Shaw pipe is likely to have issues vs a Quality prefit from a Shilen or McGowen vs a low volume BR smith.

Differences might be small but that is what you are paying for now.

the opportunity is there for those who wish to take advantage.

different, yes....

Jerry
 
I don't know the tech reasons

but every savage I own or have shot has been a super shooter. My favorite feature is the plastic trigger guard. I love the fact that it is warmer on my fingers when hunting yotes in the cold.
 
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