O'Connor on the .30-06 and .270

[philthygeezer]

"One of the hot-stove-league arguments now going on is whether the .30/06 or the .270 is the better big game cartridge. I have hunted for years with both calibers. Right now I have three .30-06's and three .270's. And that, I believe, shows how I feel.

As I see it, the 200-foot-seconds greater velocity of the 130-gr. .270 factory load gives it a slight edge over the 150-gr. .30/06 on lighter animals like deer, antelope and sheep. This .270 load also has a somewhat longer point-blank range, 275 yd. or thereabouts when the rifle is sighted in to put the bullet 4 in high at 200 . The point-blank range would be 250 yd. in the .30/06. A somewhat higher impact velocity at the longer ranges gives the .270, I believe, a higher percentage of instant kills than the .30/06. Flatter trajectory plus slightly less punishing recoil means that many hunters can do more accurate shooting with the .270.

On the other hand, the .30/06's heavier bullets make it a little superior on the larger animals. So while it's my belief that the .270 has the edge on lighter game, I'd give the .30/06 the nod on heavier animals. I doubt that anything that can be put through a .270 would be quite as effective on the heavier stuff as a good 180 grain bullet in the .30/06. And when a man is hunting really heavy and potentially dangerous game I don't think any .270 load is as effective as a good 220 gr. bullet in the .30/06, as these babies play for keeps and the bullet must drive into the vitals at all costs! Friends of mine who have hunted in Africa with the .270 and .30-06 say the latter's 220 gr. bullet is far more effective on big game than the .270 with any load."​

-Jack O'Connor, 'Jack O'Connor's Gun Book', 1953, reprinted 1992

 

[kamlooky]

Now you done it........

 

[rookie wildcat]

I don't beleive that there is any game in NA that can tell the difference. I have a couple of '06s now and used to want a .270 for elk, but that was 25 years ago, when all I owned was a .303Br and was hearing all about the "magic" of the .270. I didn't know that what I had would take an elk, I was convinced that it was a deer rifle only. Then I started learning, reading, studying and came away with my favourite cartridge. The '06. Now with some money in my pocket, I am trying something I wanted to do for years and that is the .303Epps in a couple of P-14s

 

[H4831]

No other gun writer in history has influenced shooters and hunters, the way Jack O'Connor has. Shooters litterally hung on his every word. Elmer Keith was about the only writer that ever publicly took O'Connor to task.
For everyone else, Jack was correct. If he said it, then it was right.
I'm not being critical of this, he was just a tremendous source of good, common sense knowledge. He also had a way with people. He answered every letter sent to him as shooting editor of Outdoor Life.
Long after he was no longer with Outdoor Life, a brother died and I had his Winchester Model 21 to sell. It was a bit different and I had trouble figuring out what it may sell for. I wrote to Jakc O'connor and told him the details. He answered me in a hand written letter!

 

[Mike Webb]

Jack O'Connor was a great gun writer, my personal favourite. Elmer Keith was a great handgun authority, particularly for revolvers but he couldn't be objective. His personal predjudices coloured his writing badly. Some of his stories were a little too much, like his tales of killing coyotes at 600 yards with an open sighted 45 Colt revolver.

 

[dan belisle]

There are enough witnessed instances of Elmer's shooting that you can accept his version as gospel. He and Jack had a pretty good feud going in the magazines of the day though. Sold lots of paper in the day. - dan

 

[Boomer]

O'Connor's greatest asset was his ability to observe and draw the correct conclusions from his observations, then relate those conclusions in a concise and readable format. He was seldom criticized for any statement he made simply because he left no room for criticism. There appeared to be real animosity between Jack and Elmer, yet both were correct in their own way for the time they wrote and both had their own following.

In those days nobody had figured out how to build a bullet that would stay together at impact velocities much higher than 2500 fps, although some did better than others But today premium bullets have changed the landscape and have made arguments over bore size all but irrelevant. I wonder what Jack, or Elmer for that matter, would have thought of the 180 gr ..277" Woodleigh for use on heavy game?

 

[saskbooknut]

Jack O'Connor was the master of a well reasoned analysis. I still agree with almost everything he wrote. His advice on hunting strategies is still relevant to novice hunters today.

Elmer Keith was colourful, and had a lot of experience. He lost me when he blamed the 30-06 cartridge loaded with surplus military bullets for the loss on an elk at long range when he hit the animal in the ass. Sorry, just irresponsible shooting.
None the less, "Hell, I was There" is a great book.

 

[ciphery]

Or a 270WSM

 

[ciphery]

I'd like to grab a copy of said books....unfortunately the book store I have acess to is Chapters. I think they must be anties or something because every gun book I want is unavailable. And unfortunately this big box store has driven out the smaller mom & pop stores.

 

[mbogo3]

How about SS rifles and synthetic stocks? Harold

 

[brybenn]

Chapters is very anti gun. Try amazon.com

Personally the fued between 270 and 3006 is irrelevant to me me I went with a 2506 and am getting a 35 whelen. Altho the 3006 I think is more versatile

 

[Claybuster]

No other gun writer in history has influenced shooters and hunters, the way Jack O'Connor has. Shooters litterally hung on his every word. Elmer Keith was about the only writer that ever publicly took O'Connor to task.
For everyone else, Jack was correct. If he said it, then it was right.
I'm not being critical of this, he was just a tremendous source of good, common sense knowledge. He also had a way with people. He answered every letter sent to him as shooting editor of Outdoor Life.
Long after he was no longer with Outdoor Life, a brother died and I had his Winchester Model 21 to sell. It was a bit different and I had trouble figuring out what it may sell for. I wrote to Jakc O'connor and told him the details. He answered me in a hand written letter!

I'm an O'Connor fan. His rifle and shotgun books have positions prominence on my book shelf.

Do you still have the letter? Any chance of posting a scan of it?

 

[jeff270]

If you would like to read corispondance from O'connor to Kieth check out Gun Notes
these are a collection of Elmer Kieths G&A colums .
The back of the book has letters fron JO'C to Kieth reprinted .

 

[jjohnwm]

Keith vs. O'Connor. Rolling Stones vs. Beatles. Ford vs. Chevy. Different strokes...but, just for the record, the correct choices are Keith, Stones, and Ford.

p.s. Chapters publicly announced years ago that their anti-gun stance forced them to stop selling gun mags. I cut up my Chapters card and sent it in to Heather's attention with a pointed but polite letter. Never received the courtesy of a response, not even a form letter. Don't give'em your money!

 

[H4831]

O'Connor's greatest asset was his ability to observe and draw the correct conclusions from his observations, then relate those conclusions in a concise and readable format. He was seldom criticized for any statement he made simply because he left no room for criticism. There appeared to be real animosity between Jack and Elmer, yet both were correct in their own way for the time they wrote and both had their own following.

In those days nobody had figured out how to build a bullet that would stay together at impact velocities much higher than 2500 fps, although some did better than others But today premium bullets have changed the landscape and have made arguments over bore size all but irrelevant. I wonder what Jack, or Elmer for that matter, would have thought of the 180 gr ..277" Woodleigh for use on heavy game?

Mr. Boomer, the bullet manufacturers of old could make mighty fine bullets. The CIL Copperpoint Expanding were likely at least as good as Nosler partition. RWS, even in the 1930s made a bullet, I think it was the "Wasp Waist," that many claimed was better than the Nosler Partition.
However, we're talking about Jack O'Connor. I have the 1975 issue of Outdoor Life where O'Connor has an article on the 50th anniversery of the launching of the 270 Winchester. I copied this bit from the article, where he talks about the bullet Winchester developed for the 270, in 1925.
Bear in mind that Jack wrote this article in 1975, after he was well aware of such bullets as the Nosler partition.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

No other gun writer in history has influenced shooters and hunters, the way Jack O'Connor has. Shooters litterally hung on his every word. Elmer Keith was about the only writer that ever publicly took O'Connor to task.
For everyone else, Jack was correct. If he said it, then it was right.
I'm not being critical of this, he was just a tremendous source of good, common sense knowledge. He also had a way with people. He answered every letter sent to him as shooting editor of Outdoor Life.
Long after he was no longer with Outdoor Life, a brother died and I had his Winchester Model 21 to sell. It was a bit different and I had trouble figuring out what it may sell for. I wrote to Jakc O'connor and told him the details. He answered me in a hand written letter!

I've read many articles published by both Jack and Elmer, like both but must confess,Keith is my favorite. I have quite a number of Elmers books, some of which he's signed when I paid him a visit in Salmon Idaho. It always seemed, although perhaps not quite as polished or well educated a writer as Jack, Elmer had broader experience with many aspects of handgun, rifle and shotguns.

During the early to mid 70's I was fortunate enough to meet Elmer on two occasions. I've posted a photo of it in past but the first meeting was a day long session at his home in Salmon Idaho. The second time was at a gun show and banquet a couple years later in Kalispell Montana.

While admittedly a Keith fan, I give a lot of credit to Jacks experiences and writing. I have a 30-06 Husqvarna I inherited from my Dad and this past year, I've filled a void in my gun cabnet with the purchase of a Husqvqrna 270Win and a Sako full wood Mannlicher style also in 270Win. Sorry Elmer.

My first interest and contact with Elmer Keith was when I 'acquired' an interest in handguns. Starting about 1969 I recieved two letters from Elmer and one from Skeeter Skelton, clarifying a few questions I had. Bruce, I've scanned these letters and e-mailed them to you as we speak.

 

[track]

"One of the hot-stove-league arguments now going on is whether the .30/06 or the .270 is the better big game cartridge. I have hunted for years with both calibers. Right now I have three .30-06's and three .270's. And that, I believe, shows how I feel.

As I see it, the 200-foot-seconds greater velocity of the 130-gr. .270 factory load gives it a slight edge over the 150-gr. .30/06 on lighter animals like deer, antelope and sheep. This .270 load also has a somewhat longer point-blank range, 275 yd. or thereabouts when the rifle is sighted in to put the bullet 4 in high at 200 . The point-blank range would be 250 yd. in the .30/06. A somewhat higher impact velocity at the longer ranges gives the .270, I believe, a higher percentage of instant kills than the .30/06. Flatter trajectory plus slightly less punishing recoil means that many hunters can do more accurate shooting with the .270.

On the other hand, the .30/06's heavier bullets make it a little superior on the larger animals. So while it's my belief that the .270 has the edge on lighter game, I'd give the .30/06 the nod on heavier animals. I doubt that anything that can be put through a .270 would be quite as effective on the heavier stuff as a good 180 grain bullet in the .30/06. And when a man is hunting really heavy and potentially dangerous game I don't think any .270 load is as effective as a good 220 gr. bullet in the .30/06, as these babies play for keeps and the bullet must drive into the vitals at all costs! Friends of mine who have hunted in Africa with the .270 and .30-06 say the latter's 220 gr. bullet is far more effective on big game than the .270 with any load."​

-Jack O'Connor, 'Jack O'Connor's Gun Book', 1953, reprinted 1992

I have "never" read any of O'Conner or Keith writtings. I did not want to prejudice myself or have a gun writer infulence my innocence, therefore; I purchased both the 30-06 Springfield and the 270 Winchester and came up with my own conclusions. Well guess what...........

 

[Boomer]

Mr. Boomer, the bullet manufacturers of old could make mighty fine bullets. The CIL Copperpoint Expanding were likely at least as good as Nosler partition. RWS, even in the 1930s made a bullet, I think it was the "Wasp Waist," that many claimed was better than the Nosler Partition.
However, we're talking about Jack O'Connor. I have the 1975 issue of Outdoor Life where O'Connor has an article on the 50th anniversery of the launching of the 270 Winchester. I copied this bit from the article, where he talks about the bullet Winchester developed for the 270, in 1925.
Bear in mind that Jack wrote this article in 1975, after he was well aware of such bullets as the Nosler partition.

Another good bullet from those years was Winchester's Open Point Expanding Boat Tail .308/180 which was likewise discontinued for an inferior product. But while those particular bullets worked well within the velocity envelope of the cartridges they were loaded in, they didn't have as broad a velocity envelope as the premiums today, which is primarily why I think small differences in bore diameter don't mean that much. The early loads for the .30/06 drove a 150 at 2700, the 180 at 2700 loading didn't appear until much later, and even then had a chronograph been available, 2550-2600 might have been closer to the truth in a typical '06 sporter. Thus when the .300 magnums became popular, there were more frequently reports of bullet failure. Today, if you want to outperform a .270, neither a 7 mag or a .30/06 is the answer.

 

[kamlooky]

I have "never" read any of O'Conner or Keith writtings. I did not want to prejudice myself or have a gun writer infulence my innocence, therefore; I purchased both the 30-06 Springfield and the 270 Winchester and came up with my own conclusions. Well guess what...........

You bought a 280?