O'Connor on the .30-06 and .270

H4831 said:
I could not stand the writings of Charles Askins Junior. Not because of his barbs at O'Connor, but becasue he was arrogant, cantankerous and a know-it-all.
Another writer of the time, who fit the description of Askins to a tee, was Robert Hutton. He once stated that there was not a powder on the market that made a proper load for a 30-06 with 180 grain bullets.
He also said there was no such thing as a pet load, an obvious whack at O'Connor who frequently quoted his pet loads.
Hutton stated that a load was either correct, or incorrect, but not a pet load.
Among the writers of the day with a big following besides O'Connor and Keith was, Warren Page, shooting editor of Field and Stream for 24 years. He won the US National bench rest shooting championship nine times, was a top contender in long range shooting, hunted on six continents, plus a developer of wildcat cartridges, including being instrumental in the developemment of the 243 and the 7mm magnum. Thus, he could easily be considered the greatest shooter of all time.
Some other good writers were Pete Kuhloff, shooting editor of Argosy Magazine, Col. Townsend Whelen, Mike Walker and even Bert Popowski, the famous crow hunter, etal.
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I grew up reading Warren Page, he was my go to guy before I discovered G&A, Shooting Times and Guns Magazine, and read and reread much of his early stuff from the late 1940s in old back issues of Field and Stream. He even replied to a couple of my letters, that was a pretty big deal to me back then. Its interesting that even though I read his stuff as a youngster, when I should have been somewhat impressionable, I never caught the small bore high-velocity disease. I never much liked "his" .243, (yea it was his, even if Winchester changed the shoulder on him) I do own one now and I still don't likme it as a big critter killer. Neither was I much taken with the 7 mag, despite the thousands of words Page invested in print to praise his 7mm Mashburn. But it was Page who told me how to properly mount a scope on a rifle. It was Page who made me aware of the importance of choosing the correct bullet. And it was Page who gave me a sense of what rifle accuracy was and how it differed from marksmanship.

Charlie Askins the junior was proof of what happens when you spoil your kids. As a kid he had no limits, was never accountable for any infraction regardless of its seriousness, and he grew into a dangerous, self centered, arrogant, SOB.
 
Jack was a great gun writer. I also liked John Wooters but felt Elmer Keith was pretty much full of sh*t. Another gun scribe who was interesting and a personal fovourite was Francis Sell.
 
I suspect if I had started with a .270 or 30.06 I would have stuck to it...and probably saved myself a lot of money and frustration over the years. :D
 
Mike Webb said:
Jack was a great gun writer. I also liked John Wooters but felt Elmer Keith was pretty much full of sh*t. Another gun scribe who was interesting and a personal fovourite was Francis Sell.
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Well known I'm a fan of Keith, but wondering, anything specific you've based your, 'opinion' on??? I can only wish I had his level of experience and field expertise. Also, his contributions to the world of hunting, all facets of the shooting sports and experiences thererin are equaled by few others.

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I realize Keith contributed a lot to the gun world particularly in handguns. I just find his convictions on small bore/high velocity versus big bore/low velocity more than a little ridiculous. Not that I'm a high velocity freak cuz I'm not. Just his claims about the .30/06, .270 class of cartridges are retarded. " Too light for elk or moose or bears etc", "Put five 180 grain bullets from a .30/06 through the elks lungs and he just walked away" Like to see that! The 600 yard coyote shooting with a .45 Long Colt wheelgun is another one.
I own and have read his books and they are informative as long as you take them with a grain of salt.
 
Keith obviously was an openly opinionated man with firm belief's on many issues based on his experiences.
Because a man stands his ground for what he truly believe's does not make him full of sh!!t. Others opinions and views on a subject may differ and that does make them full of horse feathers either. Just simply means there is more than one way of approaching an issue.

O'Connor and Keith were not wealthy men, but they did manage to make a reasonable living doing something they loved and contributed greatly to the sport in the process, as did many other men of the time. The fact we are having this discussion gives ample support to that statement.

The advancements in technology that we enjoy and take for granted to-day, are due to the experimentation and stances these men took back then.

They could all embelish a good story to there advantage, and that certainly hasn't changed over the years.
 
mrgoat said:
Keith obviously was an openly opinionated man with firm belief's on many issues based on his experiences.
Because a man stands his ground for what he truly believe's does not make him full of sh!!t. Others opinions and views on a subject may differ and that does make them full of horse feathers either. Just simply means there is more than one way of approaching an issue.

O'Connor and Keith were not wealthy men, but they did manage to make a reasonable living doing something they loved and contributed greatly to the sport in the process, as did many other men of the time. The fact we are having this discussion gives ample support to that statement.

The advancements in technology that we enjoy and take for granted to-day, are due to the experimentation and stances these men took back then.

They could all embelish a good story to there advantage, and that certainly hasn't changed over the years.
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:)Very well stated.
 
I thought O'Connor also liked the 375 H&H .... and if he didn't - he should have.

I recall Elmer Keith did at least one article involving duplex loads for a .338 (334 OKH) - and I know he was fond of Sharps single shots.

I think "1899" mentioned 160gr Partitions in the .270W -- it is an excellent combination. But I wish I could remember which writer put me on to that load.

I see no one mentioned Jon Sundra :rolleyes:. Gun writers have cost me a lot over the years as I purchased one "magic" calibre after the other.....but I can honestly say that Jon Sundra never cost me a penny - cause I could never believe a word he said.
 
AP said:
I think "1899" mentioned 160gr Partitions in the .270W -- it is an excellent combination. But I wish I could remember which writer put me on to that load.
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Yes, I loaded them in a M700 Mountain Rifle. I'll have to check my load records, but they were just over 2800fps out of a 22" barrel. I never got a chance to shoot anything with that bullet though. Have you?
 
Here's the reality though for people like me who live on the west coast; you're not going to make many shots past 75 yards. The 270 outperforms the 30-06 after a some distance, 150 yards I believe, but can't get up to the heavier weight bullets of the 30-06. There's really no reason to go 270 here as you're always shooting short distance, and the need for a scope is even a debate in itself. In my particular case, the 30-06 would be the caliber of choice.

With this said, what you're really looking for is a stainless rifle with iron sights that can readily down deer and black bear. Considering how you can't find a stainless rifle with iron sights other than the Zastava 98, and if you want a detach mag you're SOL for rifle selection unless you go with the Ruger GSS in 308win
 
AP said:
I thought O'Connor also liked the 375 H&H .... and if he didn't - he should have.

I recall Elmer Keith did at least one article involving duplex loads for a .338 (334 OKH) - and I know he was fond of Sharps single shots.

I think "1899" mentioned 160gr Partitions in the .270W -- it is an excellent combination. But I wish I could remember which writer put me on to that load.

I see no one mentioned Jon Sundra :rolleyes:. Gun writers have cost me a lot over the years as I purchased one "magic" calibre after the other.....but I can honestly say that Jon Sundra never cost me a penny - cause I could never believe a word he said.
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The .270 Winchester loaded with that fabulous creation from Dominion Ammunition, the KKSP(Kling-Kor Soft Point), loaded in 160gr flavor, was a very popular and apparently dependable Moose load in my neck of the woods.
Guess it gave the .270 mythical penetration properties at almost any angle, beyond what was normal in the days of cup and core and exploding lung Deer weight bullets.

Akin I would think to those 160 grain Long Tom's in the 6.5x55, which gave it it's reputation for mild recoil and deep penetration on Alces alces.
 
For the .270W 160gr Partition load I used a powder called "#49" which was apparently Bofors RP5 powder that recommended N205 load data ... came from Higginson at the time (in a plain brown wrapper with a sticker advising on use and data). I tried loads from 53gr to 57gr .. at 57gr I got a mildly cratered primer (1 in 3 shots) so reduced to 56gr (WW brass and WW primer) OAL was 3.312/3.313

Shot from a BRNO ZKK with a 24inch barrel the 56gr load was very pleasant and grouped well. My VERY optimistic Chrony said I was getting 3030, 3009 and 2911 fps (according to my data sheets) -- please dont believe this cause I didnt -- and I was there at the time:rolleyes:

BUT I see later I chronied the same load again and got 2850/2860 which seems more likely and still pretty impressive. I think that "old #49" was a very slow equivalent to H4831. I loaded up about 60 cartridges and still use them once in a while ... but like I said I got sucked into so many other cartridges by gun writers that I dont have enough time to really use one thoroughly ... did I tell you about the 8x68s??

I think this load could be used for anything in Canada - but sadly I dont recall dropping anything with it at the moment.

I had thought it would be an excellent Black Bear load and carried it accordingly. BUT it occurs to me that people who have an unreasonable fear of a bear encounter while in the woods should do what I do and buy a bear tag - that way they are sure never to see one!!

Hope this is useful - and if Higginson gets that powder again - stock up on it

(edited to add .. as a data point ...my notes claim that I also chronied a factory load Federal 140gr Bonded Core out of that same rifle and registered 2772fps so maybe you can extrapolate from that what sort of accuracy/inaccuracy my Chrony was delivering)
 
AP said:
I thought O'Connor also liked the 375 H&H .... and if he didn't - he should have. . . .
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I believe he did, but little of Jack's hunting was for dangerous game and in those years the .375 H&H was pretty much an African game cartridge which saw little use here. In those days travel and weight restrictions weren't what they are today, and it was common for those hunting in Africa to take several rifles and a shotgun as well. Today Jack might well have advised taking just a .375 loaded with 300 gr TSXs and shoot everything with it. I recall one article, but for the life of me I don't recall who wrote it, that denigrated O'Connor for getting carried away with the .270 which was a nice deer rifle and for using a .375 as a heavy. Today its rare to see a true heavy used even in Africa, if we accept that a true heavy has a bore diameter over .500.
 
I hand loaded the CIL 160gr KKSP for kicking deer out of their beds shooting them lengthways if needed.Worked quite well.........Harold
 
O'Connor wrote whole chapters on the .375 magnum. IIRC he called it the queen of the medium bores.

IMO people pigeon hole the man too much because they haven't read his work.
 
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