OCW Test - interpreting results

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Qball-16

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Did an OCW test this morning & would appreciate opinions/help interpreting the results.

Savage 12F/TR - 223 - 1-7 twist
80gr Hornady AMAX
Varget (22.9 - 25.3gr in 0.3gr increments)
CCI 450 primers
PRVI Brass (virgin)

I'm a relatively inexperienced shooter (OK/mediocre skills) and shot this off a Mystic Precision MPOD and a rear bag.
The rifle is new to me (very low round count), and we're still getting acquainted.
All rounds were loaded with bullets seated to 0.020" off the lands.
No visible pressure signs at/near max.
Range is fairly protected, so wind was not a significant factor.
Shot at 100 meters.

 
What is the max allowable load for this powder/bullet combo? The 23.5 doesn't look too bad...and neither does the 25.3? How good of a shot are you? Reason I ask is to determine if you are a sub moa shooter.
 
Triangulate the shots. Draw a line from one shot to another forming a triangle. Put a center mark in the triangle and that would be your Avg POI. Find the three consecutive powders with the closest POI to each other. Re-read Dan Newberry's OCW load development. So many people just do not understand the the instructions and are not following and reading the instructions or steps. The instructions provided by Newberry tells you which load to work off of. :)

Base on your shots pattern. I estimate 24.1, 24.4 & 24.7 have the closest POI 24.4 and 24.7 being identical. So you're 24.4 would be the load you would test your seating depth and confirmation test.

My F-class load I used for a few years out of a Savage with 26" shilen was 24.6gn of Varget. You may find after a while shooting Amaxes that you'll get the odd flyer and you'll loose points. I found that loading to the 0.02gn (1 kernel) of powder will produce better SD and ES. In the end I switched to 82 Berger BT and eliminated those flyers I had before with the Amax.

Good luck!
 
Last edited:
I'm typically a 0.75-1.0 MOA shooter, with the occasional really good day/group in the 0.3-0.6 MOA range. But like I said in the original post, I'm new to this rifle and it's not perfectly set up for me yet (TacPro adjustable cheek rest on order).

For load data:

Hornady says 20.8-23.8gr
Hodgdon says 22.0-25.0gr
Sierra says 21.7-25.3gr

I wasn't sure if I'd make it all the way through the test (up to 25.3gr) but there were no visible pressure signs that I could see.
 
308BAR said:
Triangulate the shots. Draw a line from one shot to another forming a triangle. Put a center mark in the triangle and that would be your Avg POI. Find the three consecutive powders with the closest POI to each other. Re-read Dan Newberry's OCW load development. So many people just do not understand the the instructions and are not following and reading the instructions or steps. The instructions provided by Newberry tells you which load to work off of. :)

Base on your shots pattern. I estimate 24.1, 24.4 & 24.7 have the closest POI 24.4 and 24.7 being identical. So you're 24.4 would be the load you would test your seating depth and confirmation test.
Click to expand...

I put a little sharpie dot on the approximate center of each triangle, except the 25.3 as it would be in one of the holes...

24.1gr - 0.267"
24.4gr - 0.322"
24.7gr - 0.247"
 
23.5 is your go to load. I wouldn't play much more with it until you have shot all of your new brass. When you reload it, neck size only. You may need to bump the powder charge by a grain but not much more.

I would also try seating the bullets closer to the leade and see what happens. Some rifles do well with the bullet only a few thou off the lands and some don't seem to mind the jump. Just depends on how tight your chamber is.

When you neck size only your brass has been custom fit to your chamber. Don't mix this stuff up with fired brass from other rifles. It is now perfect for your chamber in your rifle.

I find that when I am fireforming new brass I often get excellent groups with the pristine brass that deteriorates after reloading. Full length resizing doesn't make it any better. Once a cartridge has been fired all sorts of forces have been at work. This changes a lot of things that will reflect on accuracy.

From your results you have a rifle that wants to shoot and seems to be inherently accurate. Not surprising with a new Savage. They shoot like lasers and are a bargain at the prices offered. Those prices will soon be on the rise as our dollar keeps falling.

You only mention one bullet. It's a very good bullet for the twist rate in your barrel. Good choice. Those bullets are generally extremely consistent as far as jacket thicknesses go and easy to load.

You may want to try a slightly lighter flat base bullet. Some rifles do shoot them better.

Anyway once you reload those cases you may have to bump up your powder charge by as much as a half grain, which is a lot for a small case at max levels. You have a very strong rifle/barrel combo so it shouldn't make much of a difference.

Your groups are very good but like most accuracy chasers you will want better.

I find Win 748 to be a better powder for my 223rem chambered rifles. My next go to powder is BLC2. All of them are kissing cousins to Varget but each rifle is an entity unto itself. You will have to do your own due diligence but from your post I think you know that. It is not unusual for the powders I mentioned to deliver consistent 1/2 moa groups under all conditions out to 400yards plus.

Great rifle you have there along with great components. Have fun with it.

One other thing you may want to do is check how much bullet run out you may or may not have. That can be a particularly bad bug in any load. I have seen some very accurate bench rest rifles plagued by folks that use a bench press for reloading when a good arbor press with true to axis dies are what is required to shrink acceptable groups down to bragging groups.

Again, from your pic you are getting about as close as your rig is capable of shooting with the 23.5 gr load. It's not a BR match rifle you're shooting but it wasn't that many years ago that groups like yours were unobtainable because of bullet construction methods and components. The only bullets that shot anywhere near what you are shooting were custom made using J4 jackets and swaged one at a time by hand. For mass produced bullets those groups are great IMHO
 
308BAR said:
Triangulate the shots. Draw a line from one shot to another forming a triangle. Put a center mark in the triangle and that would be your Avg POI. Find the three consecutive powders with the closest POI to each other. Re-read Dan Newberry's OCW load development. So many people just do not understand the the instructions and are not following and reading the instructions or steps. The instructions provided by Newberry tells you which load to work off of. :)

Base on your shots pattern. I estimate 24.1, 24.4 & 24.7 have the closest POI 24.4 and 24.7 being identical. So you're 24.4 would be the load you would test your seating depth and confirmation test.

My F-class load I used for a few years out of a Savage with 26" shilen was 24.2gn of Varget. You may find after a while shooting Amaxes that you'll get the odd flyer and you'll loose points. I found that loading to the 0.02gn (1 kernel) of powder will produce better SD and ES. In the end I switched to 82 Berger BT and eliminated those flyers I had before with the Amax.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

I've got no designs on 'formal' competitions at this point. The goal is simply shooting consistently small groups (and winning the bragging rights with my shooting buddies - which is a pretty damn serious competition in its own way...) I suspect at some point I'll try some Bergers in this rifle, but the cost factor of the AMAX's is pretty appealing, as long as I can make them work. I don't have a chronograph, yet, so I have no idea if the vertical in many of the groups is me, or my loads (although I suspect a lot of it is me). I'm using a GemPro 250 & weighing every charge by hand, so I assume the loads are pretty consistent.

Thanks!
:cheers:
 
bearhunter said:
23.5 is your go to load. I wouldn't play much more with it until you have shot all of your new brass. When you reload it, neck size only. You may need to bump the powder charge by a grain but not much more.

I would also try seating the bullets closer to the leade and see what happens. Some rifles do well with the bullet only a few thou off the lands and some don't seem to mind the jump. Just depends on how tight your chamber is.

When you neck size only your brass has been custom fit to your chamber. Don't mix this stuff up with fired brass from other rifles. It is now perfect for your chamber in your rifle.

I find that when I am fireforming new brass I often get excellent groups with the pristine brass that deteriorates after reloading. Full length resizing doesn't make it any better. Once a cartridge has been fired all sorts of forces have been at work. This changes a lot of things that will reflect on accuracy.

From your results you have a rifle that wants to shoot and seems to be inherently accurate. Not surprising with a new Savage. They shoot like lasers and are a bargain at the prices offered. Those prices will soon be on the rise as our dollar keeps falling.

You only mention one bullet. It's a very good bullet for the twist rate in your barrel. Good choice. Those bullets are generally extremely consistent as far as jacket thicknesses go and easy to load.

You may want to try a slightly lighter flat base bullet. Some rifles do shoot them better.

Anyway once you reload those cases you may have to bump up your powder charge by as much as a half grain, which is a lot for a small case at max levels. You have a very strong rifle/barrel combo so it shouldn't make much of a difference.

Your groups are very good but like most accuracy chasers you will want better.

I find Win 748 to be a better powder for my 223rem chambered rifles. My next go to powder is BLC2. All of them are kissing cousins to Varget but each rifle is an entity unto itself. You will have to do your own due diligence but from your post I think you know that. It is not unusual for the powders I mentioned to deliver consistent 1/2 moa groups under all conditions out to 400yards plus.

Great rifle you have there along with great components. Have fun with it.

One other thing you may want to do is check how much bullet run out you may or may not have. That can be a particularly bad bug in any load. I have seen some very accurate bench rest rifles plagued by folks that use a bench press for reloading when a good arbor press with true to axis dies are what is required to shrink acceptable groups down to bragging groups.

Again, from your pic you are getting about as close as your rig is capable of shooting with the 23.5 gr load. It's not a BR match rifle you're shooting but it wasn't that many years ago that groups like yours were unobtainable because of bullet construction methods and components. The only bullets that shot anywhere near what you are shooting were custom made using J4 jackets and swaged one at a time by hand. For mass produced bullets those groups are great IMHO
Click to expand...

Much appreciated, thanks!
:cheers:
 
I shoot a Savage 12 with a Shilen 1 in 7 twist barrel. Mine likes 80 grain AMAX with 23.5 grains of Varget, and jammed to the lands. With this load I'm consistently 0.3-0.4 MOA and am still playing with neck tension and bullet types. I can go up to 24.5 grains of Varget with the 180 grain Amax's with the same accuracy and no pressure signs, after that the groups start to open.

With the stock barrel, the rifle shot 0.3-0.5 MOA but liked 75 Amax's and hated the 80 grain bullets. Now the situation is reversed with the 75 grain Amax shooting in the 0.5 to 0.7 MOA range. Bullet seating depth makes a big difference so this would be beneficial to explore.

Nice rifle and good shooting.
 
Pr589 said:
I shoot a Savage 12 with a Shilen 1 in 7 twist barrel. Mine likes 80 grain AMAX with 23.5 grains of Varget, and jammed to the lands. With this load I'm consistently 0.3-0.4 MOA and am still playing with neck tension and bullet types. I can go up to 24.5 grains of Varget with the 180 grain Amax's with the same accuracy and no pressure signs, after that the groups start to open.

With the stock barrel, the rifle shot 0.3-0.5 MOA but liked 75 Amax's and hated the 80 grain bullets. Now the situation is reversed with the 75 grain Amax shooting in the 0.5 to 0.7 MOA range. Bullet seating depth makes a big difference so this would be beneficial to explore.

Nice rifle and good shooting.
Click to expand...

That's awesome, thanks for the info!!!

On my first outing with this new rifle, I took it for a 'test drive' with some Sierra 69gr TMK's I had loaded for a different rifle and shot this little beauty of a 5-round group:



I was hoping for something similar (or close to) with the AMAX, so I was a little disappointed... I will definitely explore the seating depth and see how that goes, but I'll also keep the 75gr AMAX in mind as well.

Cheers!
:cheers:
 
chrismc said:
Maybe try another heavy bullet - my 223 didn't like amax's, but 80 smk were the poop!
Click to expand...

I'm not going to give up on the AMAX's just yet - they're just too damn cheap, comparatively... Of course, if I can't get them to work in my rifle consistently and accurately, I'll definitely explore other options!
 
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