Odd .303 Case
- Thread starter Nyles
- Start date
stencollector
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- shilo MB, the armpit of Canada
Sounds like a 1943 Dominion Industries ( CIL) .303 round. Z on .303 British indicates Mark VII ball ammunition loaded with nitrocellulose powder.
Lucky bugger, getting to dig holes on the rocket range.
Lucky bugger, getting to dig holes on the rocket range.
- Location
- Vancouver Island BC
303 rounds
I have heard that the Z designates the round for machine gun use and is loaded slightly warmer than the Mk7 ammo for the bolt action Enfield's.
I know there are other Enfield fanatics that will correct me if I'm wrong........
I have heard that the Z designates the round for machine gun use and is loaded slightly warmer than the Mk7 ammo for the bolt action Enfield's.
I know there are other Enfield fanatics that will correct me if I'm wrong........
DIZ .303 Ammo
I remember it still being in the system 30 yrs ago or so when we used to draw it for recreational shooting.It was good ammo and boxer primed,so I still reload the brass.Still have a box or 2 of live rds as well.Now speaking of the Shilo ranges,40 yrs ago my Dad and I wandered around Camp Hughes one day looking for a stash of 25pdr brass that he and a fellow gunner conspirator had left there during the war.We did'nt find it,but I did pick up a few DA .303 cases vintage 1910/1912, as well as some spent bullets from the butts,which I still have .Hughes was a very busy place during WW1.Nothing left there now.
I remember it still being in the system 30 yrs ago or so when we used to draw it for recreational shooting.It was good ammo and boxer primed,so I still reload the brass.Still have a box or 2 of live rds as well.Now speaking of the Shilo ranges,40 yrs ago my Dad and I wandered around Camp Hughes one day looking for a stash of 25pdr brass that he and a fellow gunner conspirator had left there during the war.We did'nt find it,but I did pick up a few DA .303 cases vintage 1910/1912, as well as some spent bullets from the butts,which I still have .Hughes was a very busy place during WW1.Nothing left there now.
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
303carbine said:I have heard that the Z designates the round for machine gun use and is loaded slightly warmer than the Mk7 ammo for the bolt action Enfield's.
I know there are other Enfield fanatics that will correct me if I'm wrong........
Nope, the z indicates nitrocellulose powder instead of cordite.
You are probably thinking of Mk8z which only had a slightly higher velocity and a boat tail bullet. It was intended for machine guns only because the throat erosion caused by cordite in rifles caused boat tail bullets to be less accurate than flat based ones. The boat tail, being more aerodynamic, gave greater range than the flat based bullet. If you used Mk8z in a new rifle barrel the accuracy would be the same or better.
And it takes only minutes to change the barrel for a new one in a Vickers, and mere seconds in a BREN.
Mk7z ; Mv. 2440fps at 19 1/2 tons psi
Mk8z : Mv, 2550fps at 20 tons psi
Z indicates nitrocellulose, as opposed to cordite. Nothing to do with rifle/machinegun use, or pressure levels.
Because of differing bore erosion effects, either Z or cordite ammunition was to be used for overhead fire, but not a mixture.
Mk. VIII ammunition was intended for use in Vickers guns, and had a streamlined bullet to give greater range, but this was not a significantly higher pressure situation. Rifles and Brens had sights calibrated for Mk. VII ammunition, so if Mk. VIII ammunition were used, the calibrations would not work. Current Ranger issue ammunition is headstamped 8Z, but I do not know if it is Mk. 8 Vickers gun ammuntion. I have heard that it is a special loading for No. 4 rifles, and not a true Mk. 8.
Because of differing bore erosion effects, either Z or cordite ammunition was to be used for overhead fire, but not a mixture.
Mk. VIII ammunition was intended for use in Vickers guns, and had a streamlined bullet to give greater range, but this was not a significantly higher pressure situation. Rifles and Brens had sights calibrated for Mk. VII ammunition, so if Mk. VIII ammunition were used, the calibrations would not work. Current Ranger issue ammunition is headstamped 8Z, but I do not know if it is Mk. 8 Vickers gun ammuntion. I have heard that it is a special loading for No. 4 rifles, and not a true Mk. 8.
Last edited:
stencollector
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- shilo MB, the armpit of Canada
What kind of firing pin strike is on the primer? A circular would indicate Enfield use, while a rectangle will indicate Bren.
Re Camp Hughes....the remnants of the WW1 trenches still exist there, and the fields are still littered with the old Vickers "pull the sealed lid" ammo boxes. Pretty much anything worth finding these days is buried underground.
Re Camp Hughes....the remnants of the WW1 trenches still exist there, and the fields are still littered with the old Vickers "pull the sealed lid" ammo boxes. Pretty much anything worth finding these days is buried underground.
The DI indicates production by Defence Industries Limited, a WW2-era Crown Corporation which operated four or five huge ammunition plants in Eastern Canada. One plant made nothing but SAA (Small Arms Ammunition), another made various karger calibre stuff for crew-served light weapons such as Oerlikons and Bofors guns, another made artillery rounds.....
Canadian WW2 production of .303 ammunition was astronomical, which is understandable. What is harder to understand is how they managed to keep their standards so very high.
Your DI casing is a representative of some of the nicest .303 brass ever made for reloading. Originally, it was noncorrosive and nonmercuric, which put it in a class almost by itself at that period. I hoard this stuff, as it is great for reloading.
The Z, as Tiriaq and John Sukey have pointed out, just means loaded with an extruded powder. The powder they used was roughly of the class of 4895.
Defence Industries did not follow british practice by coding the headstamps of their ammunition. They just loaded everything with the same headstamp and then followed US practice and painted the tips of the bullets to indicate anything that was not Ball ammo. Prior to this, all Canadian military ammunition followed the British practice of having the headstamp show what type of ammunition it was, as well as different primer sealers. Defence Industries were the first to break away from this system and go to the now-almost-universal American-type system.
Your casing is not a rarity, but it IS a real piece of history coming from a time when Canada was a major industrial power. What has happened?
Canadian WW2 production of .303 ammunition was astronomical, which is understandable. What is harder to understand is how they managed to keep their standards so very high.
Your DI casing is a representative of some of the nicest .303 brass ever made for reloading. Originally, it was noncorrosive and nonmercuric, which put it in a class almost by itself at that period. I hoard this stuff, as it is great for reloading.
The Z, as Tiriaq and John Sukey have pointed out, just means loaded with an extruded powder. The powder they used was roughly of the class of 4895.
Defence Industries did not follow british practice by coding the headstamps of their ammunition. They just loaded everything with the same headstamp and then followed US practice and painted the tips of the bullets to indicate anything that was not Ball ammo. Prior to this, all Canadian military ammunition followed the British practice of having the headstamp show what type of ammunition it was, as well as different primer sealers. Defence Industries were the first to break away from this system and go to the now-almost-universal American-type system.
Your casing is not a rarity, but it IS a real piece of history coming from a time when Canada was a major industrial power. What has happened?
