Odd results with slugs

Sharptail

Sharptail

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The bear defense gun reached the stage where operational testing was required. (The gun is a Rem 870 Express 12 ga. 3", 18.5" bbl., cylinder bore, ATI side folding stock & fore end, single bead sight and a 2 shot extension). Testing was done at Phoenix range, 40 yds. indoors off the bench. Only 2 loads were available for the session - Winchester 2 3/4" 1 oz. slugs, and Federal 3" 1 1/4 oz. slugs, both Foster type.

Testing began with the Winchester load. The first 5 shots fit into a circle measuring 4.1 inches, centre to centre, right at point of aim! Encouraging results, to say the least. Next, into the mag went 5 of the Federal 3 inch loads. Only 1 of the shots struck the paper (7" up & left)! After an inspection of the gun, the Winchesters were fired again (3 shot group) with results similar to the first attempt, shooting to point of aim. Three of the Federal shells were then loaded and fired, none hit the 24 X 36 inch paper. :mad:

"Buddy the Guru" was consulted, which resulted in an unexpected (and very uncharacteristic) RANT about Federal ammo, and its lack of quality. Hmmn, the Federal paper hull 24 gram trap load has proven to be a very consistent performer. Federal has at least the capability to make good shotshells.

It is well known that not all loads and barrels get along together. Results obtained in one gun with a certain load are not always duplicable in another gun, even of the same type. A 4 inch group in one gun may become an 8 inch group in another. However, the results observed in the test session seem too extreme to be accounted for as a simple barrel / ammo mismatch. Commercial ammo is known for its ability to operate adequately in a wide variety of barrels from different manufacturers. Off - the - paper accuracy and greater than 24 inch groups are not to be expected.

Does anyone have any idea what could be going on here? What would cause the results observed?

Obviously, further testing with other loads is required. Perhaps fellow GunNutz with 870's will provide feedback as to which 3 inch slug loads have proven accurate for them.

Thank you in advance for any and all info and opinions.

Sharptail
 
My 870 is not a smoothbore so I cannot help with those Foster types, BUT, I can tell you that the different commercial sabotted slugs I use will shoot at completely different places on the paper. I think slugs are just plain too variant from one to the other.
 
I have used Winchester and Remington slugs at the range, both 1 oz. 2 3/4", and the POI do vary, but by maybe 2" @ 20 yards. That being siad, I have not tried 3" slugs so i have no reference for you there.
 
I would suspect a round that is 25 per cent heavier might have a different POI but that does sound like a lot of difference. Is it possible the shooter was flinching or anticipating recoil? An 18" 870 with a folding stock isn't pleasant to shoot from the bench that may be contributing to the problem.

I use either Brenneke slugs or Federal Tactical slugs in my short shotgun and haven't had problems with either.
 
3" 1 1/4 slugs recoil more, and so the barrle gets lifted up during recoil, resulting in higher impact. A shotgun slug is pretty slow, slower thana rifle, so it's possibe the slug is still int he barrle when the recoil lifts it up....

Using a folding stock probbaly only adds to that.

Id' use 2 3/4 " Brennekes and never look back. I'd also stick a solid rear stock on it if you are serious about bear defense.:)
 
Claybuster. to say that the gun isn't pleasant to shoot from the bench is an understatement. The butt has 4 1/2 sq. inches of area in total, all of it rock hard. After the first shot, an improvised pad was made from some strips of dense rubber foam (applied to the shoulder, not the gun). This allowed for testing to continue without the need for a physiotherapist. While flinching is always a possibility, I do not think it is the cause in this case. A flinch would carry itself back to the 2 3/4" loads, and that was not observed. It also would not have affected the first shot with the 3" load, which did not hit the paper.

I was expecting a different POI with the 3" shells, but I was not expecting wide area dispersion. I am wondering if there is some problem with the barrel, but then why would it shoot the 2 3/4 inch loads so well?

Finally, where are you finding the Brennekes?

Sharptail
 
Gatehouse, your theory is reasonable, but I am not getting an elevated POI, instead I get a random POI.

For bear defense I normally carry a 45-70 lever gun, but this 870 was made specifically to fit in a 30 inch long space in a small fabric skinned Piper. The folder is a necessity.

Same question to you - whence the Brennekes?

Sharptail
 
I tested a bunch of different slugs in my 870 smoothbore and found the cheap winchester 1oz slugs were the best. Federal and Remington foster slugs were OK. I also tried brenneke's, fiocchi, challenger and even some very expensive sabot's that were a real waste of money for a smoothbore.
 
what are the muzzle velocities & ballistics coefficien?. I suspect you're getting both higher MV and a better BC (heavier slug = longer = higher BC) . both of these factors will make the 3"load print higher

i've run both Federal and Winchester 2 3/4" 1 ouncers in my 870's & Valtro,(smoothbores) barrel lengths from 14 inches to 30". no difference between the 2 brands - some guns group better with one, others with the other.
 
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I shoot a fair number of slugs through a smooth bore 870 and find that every time I switch ammo I have to adjust the sights quite a bit. I do not shoot 3" slugs! They hurt way too much to sight in!
 
yeah I have found that the Federals I have used in 3 inch, were so so in accuracy, although I do shoot a few inches high with them alot..out of a 14 inch 870. Personally I dont care for these slugs as the blast and recoil after a few boxes is crap... how bout a challenger 2 3/4 magnum high velocity slugs? maybe abit better for less bs?
 
Sorry for the hijack, but I was wondering the average price of brennekes vs foster slugs. Do the brennekes perform that much better that they are worth it? I am heading to the bush for may long and will be carrying my bear defense shotgun. I have Winchester 2 3/4 annd 3" slugs. I hope they will stop a bear if need be
 
Slug grouping

I've got a Wingmaster with a 20" smooth/improved barrel and with Winchester 1oz slugs my groups offhand are 4 inches at 60yds.I'm pleased with this as it's iron sights and under $4.00/box.
 
Throttle_monkey1 said:
Sorry for the hijack, but I was wondering the average price of brennekes vs foster slugs. Do the brennekes perform that much better that they are worth it? I am heading to the bush for may long and will be carrying my bear defense shotgun. I have Winchester 2 3/4 annd 3" slugs. I hope they will stop a bear if need be
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Brennekes are a superior product and more expensive. I feel that if you are using a shotgun as your primary defensive tool to protect you and your family from aggressive bears, you should use the best projectiles available, regardless of cost.

So what if they are $8 a box more? Arent' you worth it?:confused:


I am sure your Winchester slugs will kill a bear, however. I just prefer to use somethign that I *know* will perform...Brennekes outperform foster stlye slugs in all the tests I have done, especially when they encounter hard objects such as bone.

:)
 
gatehouse- thanks dude, I don't mind the price for brennekes, I have never found them in edmonton though. I am going to phone around right now.
 
All I use is Truball slugs. They work very well and get very good groups in my benelli nova. Somewhere between 2 and 2.5 inches at 50 yards. You should give em a try.
 
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