ODPL Multi-Gun Match - Sept 27th, 2008!

[easy]

First of all, I'm saddened that our good friend MJ has taken ill as such. Hope he recovers well and soon. I've been away and out of the loop for a short while to not have heard of this.

I'm dissappointed and resent the tone of some of you who I know are good people, yet you degrade experienced shooters by implying chamber flags and no sling rules, implying we shooteres are too complacent with safety. It was bad enough not running a hot range any longer as we were so used to with Mike's matched. Safety was never a concern. That saved time too.

All this coming from present organizers who I know have only been shooting for a few years or so. All the certs you may posesess don't amount close to the experience of some shooters out there. Be it realistic course design, safety, accuracy, or fun factor. ...and believe me, I for one remember busting stiches from laughter at IDPA matches not so long ago.

Jarlath, you now seem to be the ambasador of this ODPL and yet you deny any responsibility when someone puts forth complaints about the rules sucking ass and say someone else makes the rules so we shouldn't ##### at you, that you don't want to hear about it, that you're just the messenger.

You're the one that started this post and I think you should be the one to DIPLOMATICALLY satisfy our members and not spew out #### like "don't come out if you don't like it, start your own matches" attitude. That's not what xDPA is about. But I understand, you're one of those newcomers, I know you're good people and know you'll understand what I'm saying.

I look foreward to coming out and supporting local matches, but this thread took some wind out of my sail. Especially being indirectly implied that if I don't like it to #### off and don't bother showing up. If I'm correct about that, then maybe you should stay home because this is not the IDPA I know. Keep up that attitude and there won't be many showing up. Not that you have a great turnout to begin with. How many showed up for the last match? Six?

Some of us have been there way long before some of you. Though we don't have the time to devote to the sport and cater such for others to enjoy as well, we do know how a match should be run.

On a different note, I am now skeptical bringing out potentionally new shooters for fear of ricule in front of them. I'd be afraid to ask if my guest could tag along with the squad to see the match up close and be treated like an idiot, embarrassed. I really feel that way, how does that make you feel. I'd like to bring out a few girlfriends and maybe have them try my guns during the lunch break, as this was never an issue under another's match direction. May I also remind some of you that this particular Match Director I speak of was one who taught some of you how to shoot to begin with.

Imposing more rules as you go along ... isn't this the liberal way we're all banding togeather against?

We could do with a little less nonsense here gents.

Anyway, I'm just saying.

PS. Jarlath, I have not heard back from you about squadding me in on the 27th.

 

[acrashb]

yet you degrade experienced shooters by implying chamber flags and no sling rules
[...]you deny any responsibility when someone puts forth complaints about the rules sucking ass and say someone else makes the rules so we shouldn't ##### at you, that you don't want to hear about it, that you're just the messenger.

All good points - let me comment on the above.

The clubs make the rules. If the host club says no slings, then it's no slings. That's why Jarlath is, as he says, just the messenger. He and I discussed ways to get slings in for those who practised with them - but in the end, the host club decides. So my fancy VCAS will sit at home.

Same thing with chamber flags - the club wants them, so they get them. You didn't see any at the Sharon match because the club did not demand them. You would see them at Livingstone (in Michigan) - because the club requires it. You would not see them at the HAHA if we were again doing a multi-gun. If we were doing a long-range shoot at Winona, the range rules set by the armed forces would require them. Club-by-club, venue-by-venue, it's the price of running a match.

Same thing with a hot or cold range - the clubs decide, not the match organizers. Hot ranges are faster, and in my opinion as safe or safer (less handling of the guns), but I'd rather run a cold range than have the club block the match - if that was the choice.

Anyway, I hope to see you there. I'm just a shooter at this one, and intend to have fun even if some new guy (not Jarlath) over-zealously keeps people back from the active squad.

 

[Jarlath]

I'm dissappointed and resent the tone of some of you who I know are good people, yet you degrade experienced shooters by implying chamber flags and no sling rules, implying we shooteres are too complacent with safety. It was bad enough not running a hot range any longer as we were so used to with Mike's matched. Safety was never a concern. That saved time too.

First off. You are not listening, nor have your heard anything about whether the range is hot or cold.

1. Chamber flag is required for longguns sitting on a rack for the active Squad. That means ALL shotties/carbines/rifles not in use on the field.
2. No Sling usage. To bad, but as the MD who made the call also pointed out, not every shooter HAS slings in the first place (So I need to design CoF's to accomodate them). Trust me that if slings were to be used, my match would be even more challenging than it is currently.
3. Hot Range. I really don't know where you get this. Since Galt got into ODPL we have hosted a handful of matches of which we have had HOT RANGES. BTW this match will be a HOT range for handguns. So argue that.
4. Arguing about safety versus range imposed rules doesn't get very far. This is the FIRST Multigun at Galt in how long? If Galt wants to ensure downrange safety then I will do it, so that we can shoot multi-gun. Perhaps if everything goes 100% then we can re-establish/exceed old level of respect and trust.

All this coming from present organizers who I know have only been shooting for a few years or so. All the certs you may posesess don't amount close to the experience of some shooters out there. Be it realistic course design, safety, accuracy, or fun factor. ...and believe me, I for one remember busting stiches from laughter at IDPA matches not so long ago.

Yes and that comes from YEARS (nearly a decade if memory serves correctly) of shooting with the same people. You would also be 100% correct in that I have only been doing this a couple years. Yet I also ASK many of those people you mention for advice and information. I also accept advice and critiques because I AM new to this. Safety is safety is safety and I make no bones about it. I will enforce safety and I can thankfully say that we watch everyone INCLUDING the experienced shooters, and we have never had to DQ anyone yet and I hope never to have to (knock on wood).

Jarlath, you now seem to be the ambasador of this ODPL and yet you deny any responsibility when someone puts forth complaints about the rules sucking ass and say someone else makes the rules so we shouldn't ##### at you, that you don't want to hear about it, that you're just the messenger.

If I have control over the issue I take responsibility. I am the Galt Contact man and the designer of the CoF's. I am NOT the ODPL rule maker, nor the keeper of Club rules.

You're the one that started this post and I think you should be the one to DIPLOMATICALLY satisfy our members and not spew out s**t like "don't come out if you don't like it, start your own matches" attitude. That's not what xDPA is about. But I understand, you're one of those newcomers, I know you're good people and know you'll understand what I'm saying.

When people start stating that I am inventing rules due to a lack of trust in shooters, then Yes I will tell them to either accept the rules or don't come. If they have questions concerning the rules that are laid out I have no problem answering the questions, but don't accuse me of including rules because "I" don't trust shooters. If that was the case I wouldn't be shooting the DPA's.
I have no issues with people who ask me why a certain rule is there or being enforced, but I am still new enough that I take offence to direct attacks. I'll just have to mature into being more diplomatic.

I look foreward to coming out and supporting local matches, but this thread took some wind out of my sail. Especially being indirectly implied that if I don't like it to f**k off and don't bother showing up. If I'm correct about that, then maybe you should stay home because this is not the IDPA I know. Keep up that attitude and there won't be many showing up. Not that you have a great turnout to begin with. How many showed up for the last match? Six?

Again I explained to you above. As for the last match, it was seven plus myself, and it was my fault entirely for forgetting to have the match posted to the regular crowd via email notice.

Some of us have been there way long before some of you. Though we don't have the time to devote to the sport and cater such for others to enjoy as well, we do know how a match should be run.

I'm relatively new to it compared to you oldsters. As I said, give us advice and critism. I'm open to it.

On a different note, I am now skeptical bringing out potentionally new shooters for fear of ricule in front of them. I'd be afraid to ask if my guest could tag along with the squad to see the match up close and be treated like an idiot, embarrassed. I really feel that way, how does that make you feel. I'd like to bring out a few girlfriends and maybe have them try my guns during the lunch break, as this was never an issue under another's match direction. May I also remind some of you that this particular Match Director I speak of was one who taught some of you how to shoot to begin with.

Imposing more rules as you go along ... isn't this the liberal way we're all banding togeather against?

We could do with a little less nonsense here gents.

Anyway, I'm just saying.

Laugh. First off. If you are getting ridiculed by your "squad friends" and are worried about being embarassed, shoot on a different squad. If I recall however those were some of the "laughing in stitches" moments you are talking about. No-one has asked the our NEW crew about having non-shooters tag along. If you assume that you can just do it then don't be offended if the NEW crew says otherwise. Hell Ask Acrashb about the photo's I was taking. I ASKED first and it was at GALT and MY CoF. I asked him if I could do so and he told me the rules he wanted me to follow. I still ASK because it is polite and I don't assume to know everything.

Please don't call me a liberal or equate that slander to me again.
I want all shooters to be safe and to enjoy themselves.

PS. Jarlath, I have not heard back from you about squadding me in on the 27th.

I was away for the weekend, As you say some of us do not have the time to spend 24/7 on just shooting sports

 

[Jarlath]

Anyways. Back to the details of the MATCH.

Squad 1: Full
Squad 2: 2 Empty Slots
Squad 3: 4 Empty Slots
Squad 4: 5 Empty Slots

Less than a week left, Hurry up and sign up otherwise as you see, walk on will be limited.

 

[easy]

As I recall previous multigun matches, we'd sling an AR, when finished with it, unload and make it safe, drop it to the sling and draw your sidearm.
That way you don't have to leave your AR behind, (realistically, you shouldn't) and if necessary, you can always holster your gun, load your AR safely downrange and continue.

Makes for more realistic scenarios/stages and I think it speeds things up somewhat. Yes?

Would take a bit more of the ROs attention to be sure the long gun is unloaded and action stays open. But that's why we have ROs, right?

Just a thought.

 

[Jarlath]

As I recall previous multigun matches, we'd sling an AR, when finished with it, unload and make it safe, drop it to the sling and draw your sidearm.
That way you don't have to leave your AR behind, (realistically, you shouldn't) and if necessary, you can always holster your gun, load your AR safely downrange and continue.

Makes for more realistic scenarios/stages and I think it speeds things up somewhat. Yes?

Would take a bit more of the ROs attention to be sure the long gun is unloaded and action stays open. But that's why we have ROs, right?

Just a thought.

I know. Trust me when I say that I personally would like to have sling usage (My single point sling attachment on my tactical vest has collected dust). As I also said, the match director sets out the rules, I follow them. And yes we did discuss them.

I did do all sorts of research. USPSA has some sling rules, one of which is that no firearm may be reslinged (aka once shouldered that firearm must be either carried by hand or abandoned).

 

[MaxQc]

Look very cool, I want the same in QC

 

[667]

Against my better judgement I'll chime in...

As for sling/no sling/hot/cold ranges etc...

Not all shooters are competent/comfortable with slinging. I would hazard to guess that in fact most shooters do not have the skill to handle a slung gun such that they will not get DQ'd re. a muzzle dir. infraction.
I've witnessed a loaded handgun get knocked out of a holster by a slung rifle... I have that one on video... maybe I should post it.
IMO the use of slings in this "game" is potentially more trouble than it's worth.

Hot ranges do save time, but... for better or worse Club Rules Rule and I don't care either way...
Some clubs I shoot at reholstering a hot pistol is an acceptible if not required action... Another club's policy is that a hot pistol is NEVER reholstered once drawn..
Sounds strange, but the LE shoots I attend side arms are carried loaded everywhere except while on the active range where everything is done under command of the RO. So... It's a "cold" range.

That said.... Mark your calendar for BRRC's ODPL match November 16 2008.
It'll be a cold range... in more ways than one

For those who want to sign up early email brrcodpl@cogeco.ca
squad list will be available at http://home.cogeco.ca/~brrcodpl/BRRCsquads.htm

 

[Eagle-1]

Hello Jarlath & hello fellow gunnutz.....
Mike here..aka Eagle-1....i am still around up here in the near north.
It is nice to see that action shooting and 3 gun matches are still going on at Galt. We faught hard to bring them back. It is quite a responsibility to run such a match and i am very impressed that Jarlath has taken that on.
Match rules are just that, every match has thier own set and it is something that is not unique to this one.
Keep up the good work at Galt, keep shooting.......that is the main thing......plus have fun.
Hopefully i will pop down to the region soon and throw some lead down range with some old friends {and new ones} real soon..
Take care and watch your six.
ps. remember our old range motto..."We dont play favourites here...We pick on Everyone".
regards.......
mike

 

[Jarlath]

Look very cool, I want the same in QC

We want you to have the same too. Find a range/club that will allow it and enter into discussions with them.

 

[Jarlath]

Not all shooters are competent/comfortable with slinging. I would hazard to guess that in fact most shooters do not have the skill to handle a slung gun such that they will not get DQ'd re. a muzzle dir. infraction.

This was ultimately the main reason I dropped the sling inquiry. I personally don't want to have to DQ anyone over inability to properly use a sling. Heck I cannot guarantee that I would be able to use a sling properly while doing a competition.

Trust me when I say that I could really make interesting CoF's if you could transition Carbine to handgun and back while being able to reload your handgun with a slung carbine....

Oh BTW Chamber flags will be for sale to those who need them (Something like $1 apiece or similar.)

Some last minute drop outs (Booooooo)

Squad 1: 1 Empty Slot
Squad 2: 1 Empty Slot
Squad 3: 4 Empty Slots
Squad 4: 8 Empty Slots

Only 3 days left to pre-register.

 

[TDC]

Against my better judgement I'll chime in...

As for sling/no sling/hot/cold ranges etc...

Not all shooters are competent/comfortable with slinging. I would hazard to guess that in fact most shooters do not have the skill to handle a slung gun such that they will not get DQ'd re. a muzzle dir. infraction.
I've witnessed a loaded handgun get knocked out of a holster by a slung rifle... I have that one on video... maybe I should post it.
IMO the use of slings in this "game" is potentially more trouble than it's worth.

Hot ranges do save time, but... for better or worse Club Rules Rule and I don't care either way...
Some clubs I shoot at reholstering a hot pistol is an acceptible if not required action... Another club's policy is that a hot pistol is NEVER reholstered once drawn..
Sounds strange, but the LE shoots I attend side arms are carried loaded everywhere except while on the active range where everything is done under command of the RO. So... It's a "cold" range.

That said.... Mark your calendar for BRRC's ODPL match November 16 2008.
It'll be a cold range... in more ways than one

For those who want to sign up early email brrcodpl@cogeco.ca
squad list will be available at http://home.cogeco.ca/~brrcodpl/BRRCsquads.htm

The price of admission should be competence, not attendance. Its called dry drills. Perhaps some should spend a little time practicing simple movements with their gear prior to match day. Muzzle control is not rocket science. Anyone who fails to control their muzzle is playing with less than a full deck. Muzzle control and finger off trigger until sights are on target are the only two concerns one needs to worry about. Ok, it helps to shoot the right targets with the appropriate amount of hits but its not necessary.

TDC

 

[667]

The price of admission should be competence, not attendance. Its called dry drills. Perhaps some should spend a little time practicing simple movements with their gear prior to match day. Muzzle control is not rocket science. Anyone who fails to control their muzzle is playing with less than a full deck. Muzzle control and finger off trigger until sights are on target are the only two concerns one needs to worry about. Ok, it helps to shoot the right targets with the appropriate amount of hits but its not necessary.

TDC

Well... yeah you'd think so, but I've seen guys with years of shooting these matches under their belts who still can't get their #### together when it comes to the basic safety skills you mentioned. We all know who they are.

 

[Stevo]

Well... yeah you'd think so, but I've seen guys with years of shooting these matches under their belts who still can't get their s**t together when it comes to the basic safety skills you mentioned. We all know who they are.

If they can't be safe, why are they allowed to shoot?

 

[667]

If they can't be safe, why are they allowed to shoot?

If I have a say in it.... They're not.

I mean really.. anyone can suffer a brain fart and get DQ'd. Most learn from it and get better.
Some can have brain farts over and over and should be DQ'd, but the RO is their buddy or just a lousy RO and chooses to let it slide.
Not cool.

 

[Jarlath]

If I have a say in it.... They're not.

I mean really.. anyone can suffer a brain fart and get DQ'd. Most learn from it and get better.
Some can have brain farts over and over and should be DQ'd, but the RO is their buddy or just a lousy RO and chooses to let it slide.
Not cool.

I'm glad then that we aren't like that at our club. Safety = #1. Fun #2. You cannot follow #1 you won't be around to follow Rule #2.

 

[ricochet]

***

 

[Jarlath]

I rec'd this in the mail today! Interestingly enough, the shirts are made in Haiti

Jarlath - did I get onto squad one? thx.

Yes.

 

[Jarlath]

OH BTW here are a bunch of the new items being randomly distributed after the event. A big THANKS to The Gun Center (Formerly Lovett's) for the donations.

A Glock Ball Cap

A Blackhawk Twin Mag Pouch for AR-15 mags

How many people have a Team Glock backpack?

The main prize. A custom, made in Canada carry bag, for sub-guns and shorty carbines.

There is no raffle, no picking. Anyone who participates in the match is entered and a name will be randomly drawn for each item. I am ineligible for the draw even if I compete. I will however see if my 11.5" AR fits nicely in the carry bag

 

[TDC]

If I have a say in it.... They're not.

I mean really.. anyone can suffer a brain fart and get DQ'd. Most learn from it and get better.
Some can have brain farts over and over and should be DQ'd, but the RO is their buddy or just a lousy RO and chooses to let it slide.
Not cool.

Here is the root problem to all retarded range rules and regs. Lazy, ignorant, or biased RO's and board members who subscribe to the "everyone included" mentality.

TDC