Of Calibres, Models And Barrel Lengths Gents...

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One Lung Wonder

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I'm getting ready to pull the pin on my first single shot BPCR gun. I am new to black powder cartridge loading and only have cast for my muzzle loaders and a Uberti 1876 in .45-75 - (and have not really done all that well with that to be sure).

Here's what I think I want:

- either a Sharps or 1885 High Wall
- 28"~30" barrel
- suitable for use with mid-range tang sights
- ideally I would like a half-round/half octagonal barrel - purely a matter of personal esthetics
- calibre to be 45-70

I want to use that primarily as a range toy but want to be compliant with BPCR specs so I can shoot with the cool kids if opportunity offers. I would also like to hunt with the gun and figure that any deer that is stupid enough to fall to me and such a rifle - probably deserves it!

And of course I can see a few rifles that have most of the features I want - but not all. I am waiting on pins and needles for one of the BP geeks here to send me pics of a gun he might sell - and I notice the boys at Wolverine have some 1885's that are pretty close but are barrelled for 45-90.

What do you guys think of all this? Do I need to re-think any of this? Your scholarly advice is, as always, sincerely appreciated.
 
Welcome to the world of the Holy Black.

Get what ever rifle appeals to you, you will be much happier than with something you don't care for. Nothing wrong with the 45-90 just a little more kick than the 45-70. For BPCR silhouette your going to be limited 12.2# with sights. For BPCR target you can go to 15#.

http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Sil-r/sil-r-book.pdf
http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Blkpwdr/bp-book.pdf

Throw what you know about smokeless cartridges out the window and be ready to the learning curve over.

There is a wealth of knowledge out there.

Get Lyman's Cast Bullets manual. Also search the net for "Introduction to Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Loading" by Chuck Raithel

Download this manual http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf

Go to BPCR.net forum and the Castboolits forum. Wealth of information, knowledge and people - everything you need to know is there.

Everything you need to know and more to get started is here on their tech page info http://www.bpcr.net/.../documents/Te...nformation.htm

Scroll down and read the listing of all the documents on the page related to Black Powder Cartridge reloading rifles and shooting etc. You can download the pdf docs for future reference. Good luck and have fun

www.BPCR.net - Black Powder Cartridge Rifle

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/
 
if you are shooting black powder out of your rifle, I would go with a Sharps including the Italian copies. Main reason is that they are much easier to clean than an 1885 and the lock and trigger mechanisms are completely isolated from the breach assembly (think fouling). I would suggest going with a 40-70 Sharps bottle neck cartridge. Less recoil than a 45-70 or larger. I would not choose a 45-90 if it is using the original twist rate; the 45-90 was originally an express rifle meaning a lot of powder and a light bullet. Modern ones may be rifled for heavier bullets but you would have to confirm that.

cheers mooncoon
 
A Sharps will break parts, it's just the nature of the beast given enough time. The lever spring and firing pin are delicate. A good one even the Italian repros are expensive for what they are and going hunting with a vernier sight and a globe is a serious pain in the neck if the light isn't ideal. Hunting with a 12 lb gun gets old very very fast. Lean it against a tree and watch all that weight crunch your 150$ front sight like a beer can when it falls and you'l wish you left the damn thing at home and brought the 1876. Those fancy vernier sights were meant for the target range.

I would give serious thought to a pedersoli roller, they offer all the fun and at less cost than a sharps. A nice 1885 is good as well, the mirokus came with fairly decent sights, the pedersolis not so much, and with our low dollar the outlay for a good set will be considerable.

A 30 inch heavy barrel is nice on the target range, but it makes for a real poor hunting rifle. If you want a toy for the range, get one set up for the range.

I would stay with 45-70, just because all the leg work for working out that cartridge in every conceivable configuration and gun has already been done for you. It's very forgiving in getting a good load worked up, brass is everywhere and it lasts forever. I agree with mooncoon in not choosing a 45-90, you don't need it for mid range and the brass is considerably more expensive, don't get caught in the long cartridge trap that so many guys have.
 
I like highwalls and Sharps rifles. Mostly the ones made in Big Timber Montana :). The .45-70 is a useful cartridge for silhouette and midrange. So is the .40-65, which is what I prefer at those distances. The .45-90 is unnecessary except for long range.

Most .45 cal rifles will be either 1:18 twist or 1:16 twist these days. Either will work very well. 1:18 is most common, but 1:16 is great in a .45-90 fo long range.

I would not bother with a 28" barrel. I have a few black powder guns with 28" barrels that are excellent for offhand shooting, but for silhouettes and further stick with 30" , or maybe 32-34 for long range. Longer barrels help get the weight up fo shooting BPTR if you ever do that.

I do agree that cleaning a Sharps is the easiest. I shoot a case or two of powder a year and have only ever broken one Sharps firing pin. On a Sharps the firing pin or lever spring is very easy to change. On a coil spring highwall it's more fiddly for sure.

I do really like the looks of a good highwall. I'm a sucker for that action. I think the action type doesn't matter too much. You just need a good barrel, a well cut chamber, a good trigger, and decent sights.

That's my $0.02 fo what it's worth.

Chris.
 
Got an 1885, meh, you bet the cleaning issue is there. It's hangs real nice on the range though. If I did it over again, I suspect I would get a rolling block instead.

Myself I got a 50 caliber muzzleloader for hunting only. Mostly because it's lighter then a 30 inch barreled BPCR 45-70.

Welcome to the big stinky boom sticks! ;)
 
Well thanks boys. I'm pretty much stuck on the 45-70 as all my shooting will be pretty much black powder and I'm not knowledgeable on making my own brass for obsolete rounds (I have a 45-75 and if I hadn't lucked out on standby brass from Jamison's I would have been screwed :) ). I might consider a 38-55...I am hearing lots of good stuff about that and as long as I can lay hands on brass I am good!

I've always hunted with heavy guns. As a kid I got by with a full length K98 milsurp and then graduated to a Ruger No.1 bull barrelled 25-06 and loved it. It was about as heavy as the big magnums and recoil was non-existent. I wept like a baby when the barrel washed out, the velocities fell off and the accuracy went to pot. I've never managed to replace that rifle with a new 'favourite go-to gun'.

I've seen some tang sights that seem to be more robust...and I would hate to bugger up a fine tang sight in the bush...are thse Williams sights?

I'm really leaning to the 1885 but the cleaning comment concerns me: I thought that to clean a BPCR there was nothing to it: you turn the gun upside down in the cradle, swab it with soap and water, dry it, run some patches with WD40 to lift out any remaining water...then dry it again and then run some oiled patches down it...exactly what cleaning issues do I need to worry about with the 1885?
 
In my opinion, you simply can't go wrong with the .45-70. It's the .30-06 of the BPCR world. About the only action I would shy away from is the Miroku 1885s. They are overly complicated and hard to fix from what I've been told. I own and shoot a few 1874 Shilohs (2 in the safe and 2 on the way -eep-), a Ballard (not often), and a Whitneyville Armory Phoenix. I'd like an 1885 and a Rolling Block one day but I seem to have more rifles than shooting events.

From what I've seen over time, in terms of reliability of the more common large "American" 19th Century single shots
1. Rolling Block
2. 1874 Sharps
3. 1885 Winchester (pattern)
4. Ballard
5. 1877 Sharps (Original and Axtell repros. Kirk at Shiloh Rifle is working on fixing that reputation)

Can't comment on others such as 1878's or the Peabody rifles but they had a pretty good reputation.
 
Short Knife Johnson said:
.
From what I've seen over time, in terms of reliability of the more common large "American" 19th Century single shots
1. Rolling Block
2. 1874 Sharps
3. 1885 Winchester (pattern)
4. Ballard
5. 1877 Sharps (Original and Axtell repros. Kirk at Shiloh Rifle is working on fixing that reputation)

Can't comment on others such as 1878's or the Peabody rifles but they had a pretty good reputation.
Click to expand...

I have owned and/or shot all of the above except the 1877 Sharps. The problem with Peabody and Martini rifles is that they are limited in what cartridges they can shoot because the shell has to go in on an angle until it is part way into the chamber. They also cannot be cleaned with a rod from the breach forward. Ballards I like and my only criticism is that if the gun has a set trigger (Ballard Pacific), the trigger has to be set before the hammer is cocked although you can also fire the gun with the trigger unset. The Phoenix is a rimfire (mine is a 38) on a weak action. Trapdoor Springfields are nice but can't be cleaned from behind and the Buffington sight is an excellent sight in my opinion. On a model 1885, the close set set trigger did not work consistantly (sometime light sometimes heavy) but the single set and wide set triggers both worked well. My only criticism being that with black powder, fouling gets inside the mechanism. Almost forgot, I had an Italian Sharps for a while and the problem with it was that the case hardening on the lever pivot had worn away or not been done. The lever spring was so strong that it galled the pivot and jammed the rifle. backing the spring screw off about 1/4 turn reduced the spring tension for a temporary fix although the pivot needed to be re cased to properly eliminate the problem

For long range shooting at silhouettes, I would take the 38-56 (made from 45-70 brass) over the 38-55 because the case holds more powder. I will qualify that in that my rolling block in 38-56 has a custom fast twist barrel and uses 300 grain bullets seated well out in the case. I definitely would not go above a 45-70 because I owned a 45-110 for a while and traded it because it kicked like a mule.

cheers mooncoon
 
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Each action has it's own advantages and drawbacks. I find them all pretty cool in their own ways.

I can't believe I forgot the Stevens 44 1/2s (CPA reproductions). I know two guys that shoot them and they are pleased.

Then there is the Holy Grail - a Frank Wesson large frame. Those to me are hands down the most elegant single shot out there.

But back to the matter at hand. If I wanted to hunt and compete with the same rifle. Something with a pistol grip, cheek piece, front globe sight with interchangeable inserts. 2 sets of rear tang sights fit to a common base - one lollipop style like the old Lyman and a vernier tang with lots on windage. I'd recommend MVA sights. Not sure if to suggest single or double set triggers, but that would be your prerogative. Shotgun style buttplate.
 
I am working on it Short Knife! I am currently in negotiations for a roller, I guess - and bargaining hard!!! :)

Question - how long does your brass typically last? I am shooting a 45-75, exclusively black powder...and dreading the day my brass runs out because replacement brass is going at prices that are highway robbery...I will have to seriously consider making my own...
 
At BP pressures, with judicious cleaning, your brass should last for many many firings. I have 45-70 brass that has never been "stressed" with higher than BP equivalent loadings that have at least 30 uses under their belt. I flair the case mouth for easy seating of cast bullets and crimp substantially and have yet to have a cracked case mouth.
 
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