OK, I'm convinced I NEED a.375H&H but, which one???
- Thread starter hesher66
- Start date
Thanks but I had a ruger african 375 lefty delivered yesterday. So far very happy with it. See how it shoots sunday.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
My Ruger RSM collected some red dust in its crevices again. This one will make the neatest rug in the house. It also did a stellar job on following up my brother's large Wildebeest bull in thick thornbush. His .300 Weatherby failed to put down the Blue Wildbeest bull despite a good frontal shot, the .375 did not have the same issue, Texas heart shot from the RSM ultimately dropped him. His Wildebeest is an SCI record book animal too, my brother with the .300 Weatherby posed with the Wildebeest, as the shot would have been fatal shortly after but an animal like a Wildebeest can go a long ways when nobody told him he's dead. You won't find a better value in a .375 than the Model 70, and you won't find a nicer .375 you can afford than the RSM- I opted for the latter. The Ruger RSM true-Magnum CRF action is in a league of its own and gives you a lot more in a full magnum chambering than my Model 70's, but, it costs more naturally. It's also no longer made for that reason, it was too pricey to produce.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
I love the RSM but it's a tad big overall for a 375. Better suited to the 416 Rigby, and big customs. Everything else can be had in a better fitting package. That said, they just plain work, as you keep demonstrating.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'm a big fan of the .416 Rigby, and had I not become so married to the .375 would probably use it as my all 'rounder. I also like to go strong on my .375 loads, and the big true magnum length mag lets me seat even the 350gr TSX without eating up powder space in the case. Keeps pressures low, and velocites well above the book. When somebody's shopping for a .375 and wants some advice, having used mine a great deal and had the Model 70 as well, I suggest the Model 70 as the value is undeniable. However, if they want something a step up, and wish the most versatility possible, I definitely point to the RSM. Versatility's my number 1 attraction to the .375, and I found the M70 hindered there by the fact it's a standard length action adapted to .375. Not many true magnum CRF actions out there for around $2,000, the RSM's a superb value when you look at it, its integral sight rib, action, sights and so forth. I know you have the .416, I almost wish I'd started with the .416 Rigby as Elephant's on my list and I like using just one rifle all around. The .375 does have weight to it, for sure, but I've come to appreciate it and I'm still at the age a 10lb rifle makes no difference compared to a 7 1/2lb rifle as long as I have a good sling.
My Ruger RSM collected some red dust in its crevices again. This one will make the neatest rug in the house. It also did a stellar job on following up my brother's large Wildebeest bull in thick thornbush. His .300 Weatherby failed to put down the Blue Wildbeest bull despite a good frontal shot, the .375 did not have the same issue, Texas heart shot from the RSM ultimately dropped him. His Wildebeest is an SCI record book animal too, my brother with the .300 Weatherby posed with the Wildebeest, as the shot would have been fatal shortly after but an animal like a Wildebeest can go a long ways when nobody told him he's dead. You won't find a better value in a .375 than the Model 70, and you won't find a nicer .375 you can afford than the RSM- I opted for the latter. The Ruger RSM true-Magnum CRF action is in a league of its own and gives you a lot more in a full magnum chambering than my Model 70's, but, it costs more naturally. It's also no longer made for that reason, it was too pricey to produce.
Thanks for the input Ardent.
Like the Ruger, but didn't think it was worth the almost G-note more.
Have the M-70 now and like it a lot...but also picked up a Husky 1600 .358 NM which is almost as much rifle but much lighter and 'handier' than the Win. in almost as much 'rifle'. Haven't shot either yet so my opinion might change.
Want to mount an older Leupold /VX-III 1.5X5 on it.
Can anyone tell me where I might find some (now discontinued) Gentry Custom mounts?
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Just the sights and integral quarterrib are a $2,000 option with my favourite custom maker, and a true magnum length controlled round feed action $7,000. She strikes me as a pretty good deal for less than a thousand more than my M70, bought my RSM for under $2,000 brand new.
The Model 70 is great and you can never go wrong there, it's a true and great 'working rifle' and I almost bought Supercub's stainless .375 this year. Kinda regret not doing so.
Just the sights and integral quarterrib are a $2,000 option with my favourite custom maker, and a true magnum length controlled round feed action $7,000. She strikes me as a pretty good deal for less than a thousand more than my M70, bought my RSM for under $2,000 brand new.
The Model 70 is great and you can never go wrong there, it's a true and great 'working rifle' and I almost bought Supercub's stainless .375 this year. Kinda regret not doing so.
Thanks Ardent.
Have an opportunity to pick up a M77 Mark II Mag. in .416 Rigby.
Don't know if I will ever get to Africa but just the fact these are no longer made makes me want to get it.
Never owned a .416 (or .375 before now for that matter). Can anyone give me their thoughts or feedback on it?
I know you can shoot through elephants with it, but I'm left with the nagging feeling that in exchange for double the recoil it kills about the same as the .375. That wasn't the result I wanted, but that's what it seems like.
The .458 seems to be a noticeable step up over the .375, at least on buffalo.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I appreciate Dogleg's input as much as DRA I bet. .416 Rigby is a true classic, and proven, as Dogleg mentioned it's stout in recoil however. I haven't shot animals with a .416 and can't comment, though everything on paper looks impressive- a high SD, 400 grain bullet propelled quick enough to shoot flat and at modest pressures. Brass life is supposed to be among the best of all cartridges due to the rather abrupt shoulder, low pressures, and straight case body. 300 and 350gr loads are supposed to do well as a plains game rifle. Likely a bit less versatile than the .375, and on really big stuff, a bit more effective I imagine.
I played with my PH's .458 in the Limpopo one day and was impressed. If I could justify a .458 Lott (as in if I shot half as many buffalo as Dogleg) I'd probably have one. Maybe even just a .458 Win with the new wonder powders available. But come to think of it, if I build a bigger gun, it'll be very close to my .375, a .416-404 Jeffery, likely what my RSM will become if I ever shoot it out.
I played with my PH's .458 in the Limpopo one day and was impressed. If I could justify a .458 Lott (as in if I shot half as many buffalo as Dogleg) I'd probably have one. Maybe even just a .458 Win with the new wonder powders available. But come to think of it, if I build a bigger gun, it'll be very close to my .375, a .416-404 Jeffery, likely what my RSM will become if I ever shoot it out.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
I wish I'd found some sap with an RSM that I could have talked out of him for a song. I saw a Hamilton Bowen custom 505 Gibbs built on the RSM that made me feel funny inside. Sadly Bowen doesn't do rifle conversions anymore and there aren't many RSM donors out there. So the only option for a 505 is a real pricey Magnum Mauser or a CZ. But already owning a .416, .458 and a .470, I need a 505 like a hole in the head!
Appreciate the input by all - thanks.
Dogleg & Ardent, if you could have the same rifle (M77) in either .416 or .458 I'm assuming you would go for the .458?
Obviously a more effective dangerous game cartridge, whereas the .416 has the vel./range for a better plains rifle - something the .375 is equally capable of.
Rob
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'd be on the fence, flip a coin for me, I know Dogleg prefers the .458. I think I'd be wooed by the .416's panache, and history, I also admire its case design. It's a heavier recoiling cartridge than .458 Win Mag to my shoulder, and lighter than .458 Lott. .458 Win Mag is quite comfortable I find, but the Lott is my threshold for a rifle I'd use casually.
Overall though, I'd opt for .375, but they don't pop up everyday in the RSM.
Overall though, I'd opt for .375, but they don't pop up everyday in the RSM.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
I'd sure like to hear the debate around the campfire as to whether or not the 458 is better than the 416 with some real knowledgeable guys. Harry Selby certainly had no problems using the 416 as his backup rifle. The 458 Lott is a lot of a good thing but the Rigby is no slouch either. 500 grain bullet at 2150 or a 400 grain at 2400. Where do you draw the line with recoil? They're both pretty stout and probably more than the average Joe can handle where the 375, especially in a heavy rifle like the RSM, is a comparative pussycat. I like the 416 because it's the best of both worlds. It has similar reach and behavior at distance as the 375 but up close it is much more capable. It hits comparably to the Lott up close (though if you're a devotee of Taylor it lags behind in TKO) but outshoots it by a hair at distance. In reality for the average client it's likely unimportant which of teh three you choose, unless you're thinking about dryland hippo or elephant. At that point the 416 is a better choice and the Lott might be even better.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yep, though the Lott is actually 450grs at 2,450fps, or 500grs at 2,300fps. It is more gun than the .416 Rigby by good measure, though at higher pressure, and I've also eyed up the new fangled .450 Rigby- more gun yet than the Lott with modest pressures.
In the end I realized, for the amount of dangerous game hunting I do and plan for in the future the .375 suits my needs best. Its performance has impressed me over these last few years as well. I won't be surprised if in a five years I find a .416 or .458 in the cabinet though. I'm slowing building a .475 and that will likely be the big boy come to think of it.
In the end I realized, for the amount of dangerous game hunting I do and plan for in the future the .375 suits my needs best. Its performance has impressed me over these last few years as well. I won't be surprised if in a five years I find a .416 or .458 in the cabinet though. I'm slowing building a .475 and that will likely be the big boy come to think of it.
The trouble with the oldtimers is what they did, and what they said changed. Also, since they said a lot of things it's convient at times to remember what supports your opinion at the time.
Take Selby. He got his .416 after someone backed the truck over his double, then grabbed what was on the rack at the time. Few would have heard of the .416 Rigby if it weren't for him, and few would have heard of him if it weren't for Ruark. There's more to the story though. When he sent the .416 back to Rigby for rebarrelling, he bought a push-feed M70 in .458 and used that for the 3 years it took the British maker to get it back to him. When he got it back he sold it to a client and used the pushfeed .458 for the rest of his career. What do you conclude from that?
Taylor is best remembered for his KO theory, but if you're going to read his stuff its better to look at all of it. Right off the bat, the KO theory was about trying to predict the ability to knock down non-fatally head shot elephants with solids and nothing else. Unless you are willing to take a list of every animal in the world and cross off everything that ain't a badly head shot elephant, I wouldn't read too much into it. If stopping elephant is in your plans here's the summary. "Use the big one".
There's more, Taylor specifically mentioned two calibers as working better than his formula would indicate. They were the .375 and .416, and they are both faster than the rest of them. Imagine that. He was also quick to point out that once you enter the world of soft nose expanding bullets that footpounds of energy was about as good a measure of killing power as any.
Gotta run, and chronograph some new .458 loads.
Take Selby. He got his .416 after someone backed the truck over his double, then grabbed what was on the rack at the time. Few would have heard of the .416 Rigby if it weren't for him, and few would have heard of him if it weren't for Ruark. There's more to the story though. When he sent the .416 back to Rigby for rebarrelling, he bought a push-feed M70 in .458 and used that for the 3 years it took the British maker to get it back to him. When he got it back he sold it to a client and used the pushfeed .458 for the rest of his career. What do you conclude from that?
Taylor is best remembered for his KO theory, but if you're going to read his stuff its better to look at all of it. Right off the bat, the KO theory was about trying to predict the ability to knock down non-fatally head shot elephants with solids and nothing else. Unless you are willing to take a list of every animal in the world and cross off everything that ain't a badly head shot elephant, I wouldn't read too much into it. If stopping elephant is in your plans here's the summary. "Use the big one".
There's more, Taylor specifically mentioned two calibers as working better than his formula would indicate. They were the .375 and .416, and they are both faster than the rest of them. Imagine that. He was also quick to point out that once you enter the world of soft nose expanding bullets that footpounds of energy was about as good a measure of killing power as any.
Gotta run, and chronograph some new .458 loads.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
I think Don Ker actually drove forward over the double, but that's splitting hairs.
You are 100% correct in pointing out that devotees of teh 416 such as myself would likely never have heard about either Harry nor teh 416 if Ruark hadn't been a Hemingway afficionado.He also said that he sold the Rigby to his client to ensure that it didn't disappear into the African-government-vortex after his eventual death. That said, my PH last year carried a PF M70 in 458 Win as did the camp manager (who received the rifle as a gift from the owner of the safari company when he started as an appy). Neither of them have had their dinks fall off though by all reasoning Gibbo should have not only been killed long ago, but his dink should have fallen off long before that. Yet he still survives and, as best I know, is still a whole man.
Taylor is best remembered for his KO theory, but if you're going to read his stuff its better to look at all of it. Right off the bat, the KO theory was about trying to predict the ability to knock down non-fatally head shot elephants with solids and nothing else. Unless you are willing to take a list of every animal in the world and cross off everything that ain't a badly head shot elephant, I wouldn't read too much into it. If stopping elephant is in your plans here's the summary. "Use the big one".
There's more, Taylor specifically mentioned two calibers as working better than his formula would indicate. They were the .375 and .416, and they are both faster than the rest of them. Imagine that. He was also quick to point out that once you enter the world of soft nose expanding bullets that footpounds of energy was about as good a measure of killing power as any.
Gotta run, and chronograph some new .458 loads.
Taylor certainly did spin a good yarn, and shot a pile of game. But you are right, knocking elephant unconscious is different from playing in the weeds with buffalo or body-shooting a drymand hippo. I've only read one book by Taylor, and like other old books, they have some very good information and some that is still pertinent ("The Accurate Rifle" by Warren Page is another gooder worth picking up), but the times have changed quite a bit and it doesn't take long for a definitive work to become outdated. Thank God, else what would we argue about?
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Go over to the Big Bore forum on Accurate reloading if you want to debate the .416s vs the .458's
Your eyeballs will bleed with the amount of info that is presented!
And you will likely retch after listening to some of those lunatics for too long. They are a funny bunch.
