Old damascus barreled shotgun

PerversPépère

PerversPépère

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Hi there!
One of my friends has a rather interesting 12 gauge shotgun: it has damascus barrels in a rather fine pattern and external hammers.

I don't know if it has ever been proofed for smokeless but are there any stamps on that picture that can tell you the origins of this shotgun?
Its brand name is "R Curmann Bros"
PP.
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It appears to be a BELGIAN SHOTGUN and black powder proofed, but I can't see the proofs all that well in the photos. You can go to an excellent website with proof marks at http://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf It may not be a Damascus barreled shotgun , some were regular barrels that were etched chemically to give the appearance of the more desirable ,at that time, DAMASCUS BARREL. But even if it is not DAMASCUS it will probably have a short chamber that would prevent it from safely firing modern 2 3/4 in shot shells unless the chamber is lengthened .
 
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Bearman has it right - Belgian, black powder, short chambers, no modern loads please. The 3 pin locks indicate the absence of intercepting safety sears. I do not know the name, but there were so many brand names that were applied to Belgian guns that it is almost irrelevant.Economy guns such as this were built by the thousands and exported all over the world. They make excellent conversation pieces.

Sharptail
 
Damascus

BEARMAN said:
It appears to be a BELGIAN SHOTGUN and black powder proofed, but I can't see the proofs all that well in the photos. You can go to an excellent website with proof marks at http://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf It may not be a Damascus barreled shotgun , some were regular barrels that were etched chemically to give the appearance of the more desirable ,at that time, DAMASCUS BARREL. But even if it is not DAMASCUS it will probably have a short chamber that would prevent it from safely firing modern 2 3/4 in shot shells unless the chamber is lengthened .
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I can tell it is a damascus barrel by the pattern on it. It is a better grade of damascus, very far away from the cheap twist-steel I have seen sometimes.
A friend of mine is a very fine knifemaker and he often assembles and forges special mosaic-patterned blades in Damascus steel. The fine ones have that look.
Very good damascus barrels can and have been nitro proofed by the British and they are very much sought after by some upland shotgunners.
PP.:)
 
I have a NEUMANN BROS THE INTERCHANGEABLE 12 GAUGE HAMMER SHOTGUN with FINE DAMASCUS FINISH written on the top of the barrels. The barrels are not DAMASCUS but "damascus etched". Check your barrel it may be the same , on mine the pattern is very good, but it is still a counterfeit of damascus . But in my case that is a good thing, I just need to lengthen the chamber or make shorter rolled crimp shells that are low pressure and I have a COWBOY ACTION SHOT GUN. I also need a butt stock and it turns out that " THE INTERCHANGEABLE" isn't very interchangeable, it seems that each NEUMANN BROS gun must have been hand made by a different person.
 
I'll ask my friend to look at wear points on the barrel; if is is an etched finish, it will be worn.
As you said, if fluid steel, this can be a good thing. If there's enough meat in the front part of the chambers, this could be reamed out to lenghten the forcing cone and give enough space for ordinary 2 3/4" shells.
Could make a good cowboy action shotgun.
Or left as is, with short paper hulled cases.
PP.:)
 
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I doubt that the pattern on PervesPepere's shotgun is etched, it looks like a very goodexample of "star" twist pattern. To give you an idea of how much work it is to produce, here is the short version:
1. Alternating layer of different steels are laid up in a billet
2. the billet is forge welded together and then forged down to roughly 1/4" square rod.
3.The rod is tighly twisted and then half or more of the metal is ground or cut away to reveal the star pattern in the centre and then flattened.
4. After truing up the riband, it is wound around a madrel and forge welded on the edges to form a tube.

Somewhere in my collection of "stuff" I have a picture of a barrel maker welding stubs of horshoe nails together to produce the starting material for a barrel.
Considering the huge amount of work to produce one barrel blank I'm amazed that they were sold as cheaply as they were.
 
My hint that it MAY not be Damascus is the beautiful pattern on the bottom of the barrel and the lack of same pattern on the closeup of the side of the barrel were there may have been more wear. But this is looking at a picture , it still needs to be checked by not just any gunsmith but one who is familiar with and who likes old doubles. There are some good gunsmiths who don't have a clue about older firearms but are very good with the new stuff. A good gunsmith should tell you if he can deal with this situation.
 
if your a competent shotshell reloaderi can't imagine it would be too difficult to load BP shotshells for use in a damascus barrel. also would modern light loads IE trap loads be safe?
 
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BEARMAN said:
My hint that it MAY not be Damascus is the beautiful pattern on the bottom of the barrel and the lack of same pattern on the closeup of the side of the barrel were there may have been more wear. But this is looking at a picture , it still needs to be checked by not just any gunsmith but one who is familiar with and who likes old doubles. There are some good gunsmiths who don't have a clue about older firearms but are very good with the new stuff. A good gunsmith should tell you if he can deal with this situation.
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BEARMAN - I agree that it is difficult to tell from a picture whether it is authentic pattern welded steel or not. If I squint hard enough I think I can see weld line in the close up picture.
Most of the fake damascus I've seen doesn't really look like the genuine article so I was basing my assumption on the star pattern.
I also agree 100% that it needs to be checked out by someone familiar with old doubles.
I have a basket case Jones underlever gun with star pattern barrels that I keep around because I admire the work that went into it.
 
kevin.303 said:
if your a competent shotshell reloaderi can't imagine it would be too difficult to load BP shotshells for use in a damascus barrel. also would modern light loads IE trap loads be safe?
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To many, damascus barrels are as good as or better than fluid steel barrels. However, this opinion generally refers to NEW damascus barrels vs. new fluid steel barrels. There have been informal tests done that have proven that good quality damascus barrels can, indeed, withstand higher pressures than fluid steel in certain circumstances.

Nevertheless, it is only prudent to use only BP shells in any shotgun that has damasus barrels and hasn't been re-proofed for nitro. Modern loads, even trap loads, are not considered safe under any circumstances. This is primarily due to the fast-burning characteristics of nitro powder. I have damascus barreled shotguns and I haven't found it impossibly difficult to buy 2 1/2" BP shells - harder to find nitro in 2 1/2" (which is how most damascus-barreled guns are chambered) than BP.

SS
 
Ellwood Epps sells factoy BP shotgun shells, and low pressure smokeless as well.
It is not hhard to reload for BP however, and I do it all the time for 16, 12 and 10 guage.
It is done with all hand tools, I use brass cartridges, but one can use paper as well.'
STAY AWAY from plastic hulls ,wads and BP however!:eek:
The plastic layers up in the barrel really bad!
Fiber and card wads only!

Cat
 
Depending upon the condition of the barrels and the locks, somewhere between $75 and $200. The reason we see (relatively) quite a few old Belgian hammer guns around is because they were very inexpensive. In the U.S., dealers could import them, pay an import duty, and still put them on the shelves priced well below domestic production. In 1900, you could buy a Belgian hammer gun for less than $10, whereas a decent American gun was $35.

Sharptail
 
This past spring I saw a Belgian double, a "Baker" IIRC, sell for about $300. It was in really fine shape, all the case colours, 95%+ blue, tight action, shiney bores. You seldom see these guns in that sort of condition, so I suppose that the price reflected that.
 
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