OLD Double barrel SxS shotgun?

The image on the right is a inspection view mark which is what it sounds like you are describing. The image on the left is a black powder proof mark. As mentioned, there should also be gauge or each barrel should have a number on it designating bore diameter . For example, even though say a gun is a 12 gauge, there might be 13 or 14 stamped into the barrels which means the bores are actually 13 or 14 gauge which is how they produced "choke" back in the day.

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Ok guys, I removed the forearm, and low and behold, I have Proof Marks Galore! Im thinking it was built between 1855-1868!

Here is a close up I took with my Galaxy SIII, can someone please decipher the hieroglyphics? LOL.... and don't hesitate to tell me its worth thousands at this point! yeah, right. ;-)

2en5e0p.jpg


I hope they are clear enough.

thanks for all your help, guys.
GiNNz!
 
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Wow.... so this thing is freaken old! The more I look into this thing, the more I like it. Im a modern rifle kinda guy, but will hang on to this old relic, and will be making some black powder loads for it in the future..... I want to shoot this thing in the spring. :)
 
You know guys, I don't understand why they didn't just stamp the exact year it was actually produced! I mean, jeez, they sure leave the date of manufacture to be a real mystery! Wouldn't the extremely low serial # (No. 938) give use a little more of an Idea as to when it may have been made?

And, do any of you guys have any Idea as to where I may be able to find some old brass .12 gauge shells?? I'd really, really like to find a dozen or two dozen to work with! And most certainly I would start low! I'm not looking to make any magnum loads for this puppy! Just something usable, It would be fun to shoot pigeons with it at my buddy's farm next summer! I picked up a couple pounds of real BP, and a box of shotgun primers. I'll find a buddy who can sell me some wads and a bag of #7, or 9 shot, and I'll go from there.... I'll just reload them (super manually) ;-)

Thanks for all the reply's guys, and I plan on getting a real value on it this winter, somehow.

Ginnz!
 
I think it should actually be from left to right:

Birmingham provisional black powder proof (circa 1856)

Birmingham view mark

The 13 is the bore of the barrels (13 round balls the diameter of the bore = 1 pound) This one has no choke. If it had choke it would have something like 12B 13M stamped on it. The number followed by the B is the bore diameter and the number followed by the M is the muzzle diameter. Often would have NOT FOR BALL or later CHOKE stamped with it.

The crossed sceptres with the crown and B, C, P, is the Birmingham definitive black powder proof for shotguns (1868-1925)
 
North of 58 said:
I think it should actually be from left to right:

Birmingham provisional black powder proof (circa 1856)

Birmingham view mark

The 13 is the bore of the barrels (13 round balls the diameter of the bore = 1 pound) This one has no choke. If it had choke it would have something like 12B 13M stamped on it. The number followed by the B is the bore diameter and the number followed by the M is the muzzle diameter. Often would have NOT FOR BALL or later CHOKE stamped with it.

The crossed sceptres with the crown and B, C, P, is the Birmingham definitive black powder proof for shotguns (1868-1925)
Click to expand...

The way I understand it the 13 bore would mean it is choked being it is 12 gauge. I have been told that's how they choked guns back in the day, by having a smaller bore than what the actual chamber gauge is. I had a 12 gauge with 14 bore barrels and was told by members on another forum to be careful as it was probably tightly choked. Not for ball, or the word choke were just other ways to signify if a gun was choked during different time periods of proof laws.
It does look like a barrel lug has been soldered back on so it should be checked out. Brass shells can be got from Mag Tech .
 
gunsaholic said:
The way I understand it the 13 bore would mean it is choked being it is 12 gauge. I have been told that's how they choked guns back in the day, by having a smaller bore than what the actual chamber gauge is. .
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In my experience, the 13 would refer to an open bored gun with no choke. I have owned several guns stamped 13 b 15 m for 13 breach and 15 muzzle and were essentially full choke 12 guage guns. If my memory is correct, the gun had a barrel key securing the forend to the barrels and that is an early method suggesting to me that the gun was made in the 1860s and prior to choke boring. Can't remember the exact dates but roughly between 1875 and 1885 choked guns were stamped "not for ball" in addition to the muzzle and breach dimensions. Following that the diamond C came in to indicate a choked gun

cheers mooncoon
 
The 'bore' or 'gauge' of a shotgun is expressed by the number of lead balls that fit the barrel make a pound. So twelve identical balls gives a 12 bore/gauge. Thirteen is an acceptable variation - the gun would still be called a 12 bore/gauge.

tac
 
mooncoon said:
In my experience, the 13 would refer to an open bored gun with no choke. I have owned several guns stamped 13 b 15 m for 13 breach and 15 muzzle and were essentially full choke 12 guage guns. If my memory is correct, the gun had a barrel key securing the forend to the barrels and that is an early method suggesting to me that the gun was made in the 1860s and prior to choke boring. Can't remember the exact dates but roughly between 1875 and 1885 choked guns were stamped "not for ball" in addition to the muzzle and breach dimensions. Following that the diamond C came in to indicate a choked gun

cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...

Yes, I had it backwards and was thinking of something different when I posted my earlier remark.
 
I'd suggest not using plastic wads in BP shells. BP will have a tendency to melt the plastic and deposit it in the bore. Fibre wads and paper overshot cards can be purchased from Track of the Wolf quite cheaply. This is how these guns were originally loaded ..... there were no plastic wads in the 1860's.


Interesting discussion on the proof marks. I will have to go have a look at my ca 1870's double barrel and see what it has on it. ;)
 
A 13 bore is definately acceptable and common for a 12 chambered shotgun. I have one that is 14 bore. The 12 C in the diamond refers to the chamber, not choke. If it is a 12 bore and has chambers up to 3" it will have the 12 C. It the chambers are longer than 3" it will have 12 LC in the diamond.
 
WOW, this thread has been a load of info for me! thanks guys! And I WILL find a dozen or so brass shells for this shotgun! One more thing, im a wee bit confused with though, at the end of the day, WHEN do you guys think this particular shotgun was built? Taking in consideration the Ser# of 938? 1870?
 
If the hammers have half cocks, and aren't rebounding, I would suggest no later than the 1870s.
The serial number may not be very useful for dating, unless the business' records have survived.
Don't assume that H. Adkin or his shop made the gun. There was a huge industry in Birmingham which supplied the trade.
Brass cases are all very well, but plastic ones trimmed to length will work just fine. Look for an old roll crimper.
 
ginnz said:
You know guys, I don't understand why they didn't just stamp the exact year it was actually produced! I mean, jeez, they sure leave the date of manufacture to be a real mystery! Wouldn't the extremely low serial # (No. 938) give use a little more of an Idea as to when it may have been made?

And, do any of you guys have any Idea as to where I may be able to find some old brass .12 gauge shells?? I'd really, really like to find a dozen or two dozen to work with! And most certainly I would start low! I'm not looking to make any magnum loads for this puppy! Just something usable, It would be fun to shoot pigeons with it at my buddy's farm next summer! I picked up a couple pounds of real BP, and a box of shotgun primers. I'll find a buddy who can sell me some wads and a bag of #7, or 9 shot, and I'll go from there.... I'll just reload them (super manually) ;-)

Thanks for all the reply's guys, and I plan on getting a real value on it this winter, somehow.

Ginnz!
Click to expand...

you can get new magtech hulls you will need 11ga card wads 1/8" nitro and some 1/2" fiber and 10ga thin overshot cards no plastic wads they will melt maybe a shot cup on top of the fiber wads but no 1 piece plastic touching the powder
 
tiriaq said:
If the hammers have half cocks, and aren't rebounding, I would suggest no later than the 1870s.
The serial number may not be very useful for dating, unless the business' records have survived.
Don't assume that H. Adkin or his shop made the gun. There was a huge industry in Birmingham which supplied the trade.
Brass cases are all very well, but plastic ones trimmed to length will work just fine. Look for an old roll crimper.
Click to expand...

don't need a old roll crimper(hard to find BTW) ballistic products makes nice new one that mount in a drill or drill press
 
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