Old muskets
- Thread starter Snowboy
- Start date
The top two are Snider Enfields in .577 caliber (cartridges) While they seem to be good condition, they also seem to have had the metal parts painted over so I would probably price them around $500 each.
The third gun is quite unusual; at first glance it appears to be an Indian trade gun as sold by the HBC and the Northwest Co. It is a converted flintlock but the stock is not typical of those guns. If the lock has a fox stamped on it, I would put the guns price up around $800 - $1000 but if no fox on the barrel, lock or stock, I would drop the price down to $600 - $700. Interesting gun. The lock does appear to be original to the gun and may represent a re used lock.
cheers mooncoon
The third gun is quite unusual; at first glance it appears to be an Indian trade gun as sold by the HBC and the Northwest Co. It is a converted flintlock but the stock is not typical of those guns. If the lock has a fox stamped on it, I would put the guns price up around $800 - $1000 but if no fox on the barrel, lock or stock, I would drop the price down to $600 - $700. Interesting gun. The lock does appear to be original to the gun and may represent a re used lock.
cheers mooncoon
- Location
- West coast of Vancouver Island
Could you provide additional photos of the bottom gun? The sideplate, left side of the lock, and the top of the breech? Thanks
tactical870
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Buckhorn, Ontario
The top two sniders are worth about $500 each if you can find the right buyer and the breech blocks are still tight. Not sure on #3.
The bottom one is a converted flintlock and I guess it is possible that it was used in 1837. Percussion guns I think became popular around 1830 and it is kind of a toss up when flintlocks started commonly being converted to percussion.
The Boer wars were fought 1880 - 81 and 1899- 1902. I would think that British troops would have been armed with Martini rifles for the first one and probably Lee Metfords and Long Lees during the second one. If the Sniders were used they would probably have been used by civilians.
cheers mooncoon
I had never heard of this before. Thanks for mentioning it. It may be that this part of history has been somewhat covered up?
I've heard of the Rebellion but not many of the details.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saint-Eustache
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saint-Charles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Canada_Rebellion
- Location
- land of f-cktards
The (RW) stamp on the barrel indicates that the barrel was made by Richard Wilson. He was approved in 1730 to use this proof stamp. I have owned a number of trade guns by Wilson and the one you have looks like a very early one. It would not hurt to lightly buff the lock using WD30 and 0000 steel wool and I am sure you will find the name wilson on the lock.
This link is very interesting to read about his career.
http://asoac.org/bulletins/85_bailey_wilsons.pdf
You Sir, have a gun that cleaned up and professionlly reconverted back to Flint is worth a lot more then $600 or $700.
This link is very interesting to read about his career.
http://asoac.org/bulletins/85_bailey_wilsons.pdf
You Sir, have a gun that cleaned up and professionlly reconverted back to Flint is worth a lot more then $600 or $700.
I think that the counterpoint would be that Wilson and other british makers would have been extremely unlikely to use curly maple for the stock plus the gun has no serpent on the left side. My impression is that the use of the serpent side plate goes back to the early or mid 1700s. I am left with the impression of a gun that has been restocked in the eastern US using the barrel, lock and trigger guard of a trade gun. or at least a barrel made by Wilson.
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
Not unusual at all for parts to get recycled. Restocking was common. I couldn't say definitively if the gun is restocked or not without examination. Interesting the way a wooden rib was used instead of a full length stock. May have been a way of dealing with a broken forend.
Now, Wheeler made a variant fusil in the post 1800 period, which looked just like a HBC/NWCo. trade gun, except that it did not use a serpent sideplate. The lock was like a NW gun, as were the trigger, guard and rr pipes. I have seen a few of these; they are a definite pattern. No idea for whom they were made. It would be worth taking a really good look at the barrel proofs - are they standard post-1813 Birmingham marks, or are they Board of Ordnance proofs for privately made arms? The reason I ask is that many of the "trade guns", with circle fox marks and serpents seen in ON have BO marks, and were never fur trade guns. They were made and supplied as militia arms during the 1812 War period, or were supplied to HM Indian allies, treaty guns, etc. I have a "MOXHAM" NW gun (1813-1818) with such marks, along with the brands of the Indian Departmrnt of the British Army. It was my suspicion that these Wheeler variant guns may have been made and supplied during this period.
I am not a fan of reconversion. It destroys much of the historical use of the gun and turns it into a representative specimen at best. A significant amount of welding and refinishing is required. I do not believe that reconversion adds value to an antique, and diminishes its value as an artifact.
Now, Wheeler made a variant fusil in the post 1800 period, which looked just like a HBC/NWCo. trade gun, except that it did not use a serpent sideplate. The lock was like a NW gun, as were the trigger, guard and rr pipes. I have seen a few of these; they are a definite pattern. No idea for whom they were made. It would be worth taking a really good look at the barrel proofs - are they standard post-1813 Birmingham marks, or are they Board of Ordnance proofs for privately made arms? The reason I ask is that many of the "trade guns", with circle fox marks and serpents seen in ON have BO marks, and were never fur trade guns. They were made and supplied as militia arms during the 1812 War period, or were supplied to HM Indian allies, treaty guns, etc. I have a "MOXHAM" NW gun (1813-1818) with such marks, along with the brands of the Indian Departmrnt of the British Army. It was my suspicion that these Wheeler variant guns may have been made and supplied during this period.
I am not a fan of reconversion. It destroys much of the historical use of the gun and turns it into a representative specimen at best. A significant amount of welding and refinishing is required. I do not believe that reconversion adds value to an antique, and diminishes its value as an artifact.
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- Location
- West coast of Vancouver Island
The barrel looks to have London proof marks in use from 1685 to 1813. The lock could be a Wilson but it is too corroded to tell. Is there any engraving on the top of the butt plate or bottom of the trigger guard?
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If you look closely athe pictures of the left side, there appears to be remnants of a former brass sideplate (consistent with the "serpent" type) stuck to the rear screw. I have only had the priviledge to examine a single example of a HSBC "trade gun", and the sideplate was inlaid in that example.
So the theory that this gun may have started it's like as a trade gun, but was restocked at some time makes sense. The trigger and trigger guard are consistent with the example I examined so I guess they may have been re-used.
As for the story that it could have been used in the 1937-38 rebellions, one would require solid documentation and provenance for it to be a factor in the gun's value.
So the theory that this gun may have started it's like as a trade gun, but was restocked at some time makes sense. The trigger and trigger guard are consistent with the example I examined so I guess they may have been re-used.
As for the story that it could have been used in the 1937-38 rebellions, one would require solid documentation and provenance for it to be a factor in the gun's value.
- Location
- West coast of Vancouver Island
Rob I believe the side plate is one of these, for a Hawken Rifle or Plains Rifles.
