Old powder ?

R-P powders are Bofors. They make a full range of superb powders. Some are re-sold by Alliant as RL-15, Benchamark, etc. I used to use a lot of their powders, with RP28 being my favourite. Slightly faster than 4895.

How much RP-3 do you have ? I could check my Bofors file and tell you what it is.
 
H4831 said:
You have a nice collection.
Here is one you won't find in the $5 range. I have a top and bottom picture of it, but none showing the side view. It is about 3½" high, corrogated metal barrel. The cap has cut brass threads and the container is about half full of the original powder.
I probably wouldn't load this in a cartridge, but I recently tried burning some and it burnt just like normal powder.
Come to think of it, maybe I should treat it like fast shotgun powder and load a few grains behind a lead bullet, maybe in the 45-70!
It would be interesting to see if it still goes off, somewhat normal.
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Any idea how old this can is? I see a patent date of '93 (1893) on it.
 
bh, your not supposed to take such deep breaths in when you're smelling those old tins. HA HA.

I'm just finishing the last bit of original H4831 that I purchased 40 years ago. It was marked "4831" on the drum. I bought it at Kessilrings. They had it in a huge paper drum. When they emptied one, out would come another. They sold it by the scoop for 50 cents or by the pound, if you bought at least 5 pounds. The scoops worked out to about 6 ounces, give or take. They charged $1/lb by weight. I bought a 50 pound keg. They had some empty paper kegs that said 25lbs on them and they filled them to the top. IIRC, the price for large purchases had a 10% discount. I split it all up into smaller packages when I brought it home. There was at least 60 pounds of powder in those two cans.
No one at the border, even batted an eyelash. It turned out trap shooters, used to go down there and come back with a couple of hundred pounds on a steady basis. I thought I really had a big batch. Oh well.
 
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I will guess that the little green drum of powder is not much after that patent date. I have another old can, about half full of undoubtably the original powder, of Laflin & Rand, with the Du Pont sticker on top. This one is quite a bit newer, but still note the directions given on loading, like it was something new. It gives UMC as one of the shells to load. From memory I thought it was about 1911 that UMC became REM-UMC.
Note the Laflin and Rand has pushed in, coarse threads on the cap, while the little drum is cut threads.
The powder in the L & R is black flake, looks like any modern powder, while the powder in the little drum is an ashy white, granulated and looks like no other powder I have ever seen. But it burnt like modern powder.
So all in all, I would think the Du Pont can shown would be shortly after the 1893 patent date.
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Just as a side note, all the reloading instructions the reloaders of the day would have, would be what is written on the cans.
The second can, being a few years newer, as more explicit instructions.
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bearhunter said:
bh, your not supposed to take such deep breaths in when you're smelling those old tins. HA HA.

I'm just finishing the last bit of original H4831 that I purchased 40 years ago. It was marked "4831" on the drum. I bought it at Kessilrings. They had it in a huge paper drum. When they emptied one, out would come another. They sold it by the scoop for 50 cents or by the pound, if you bought at least 5 pounds. The scoops worked out to about 6 ounces, give or take. They charged $1/lb by weight. I bought a 50 pound keg. They had some empty paper kegs that said 25lbs on them and they filled them to the top. IIRC, the price for large purchases had a 10% discount. I split it all up into smaller packages when I brought it home. There was at least 60 pounds of powder in those two cans.
No one at the border, even batted an eyelash. It turned out trap shooters, used to go down there and come back with a couple of hundred pounds on a steady basis. I thought I really had a big batch. Oh well.
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I remember talking to a guy from the PoCo range a while back. He mentioned a similar story about getting big kegs of powder from Kesselring's in WA state. I recall him saying he got 100 pounds for $65 at the time. He said that at the border, there was no legal issues, just that the inspector didnt want to get anywhere near his car!

When I got the large black drum in my photo, someone noticed me carrying it around at the gun show. He said taht he had one with postage stamps on it! The seller just slapped a label and sufficient postage on the drum, and it was good to go!

H4831 (the member, not the powder...), those are some neat old cans. Lets see some more photos. (Seeing as this thread is completely off topic now...:) )
 
Well tootall, the title of the original thread is, "Old powder," so we are not too far off it.
However, I can see that you young fellers just can't remember when surplus H4831 was cheap. I was involved in the business at the time and we got those 50 pound cardboard type drums, wholesale, dealer prices, for $18., delivered to central BC. To promote our reloading business we weighed out the powder and sold it in brown paper bags for only fifty cents a pound. The above statement is correct, as I had notes on it. A lot of people got into reloading for their rifles because of that cheap powder.
I still have a couple of pounds of it and it looks fine. I do not have a chrono at this time, or I would again check it against modern H4831.
 
Powder is still supplied in paper drums. They have gone metric. Typical drum is now 20 kg (44 pounds) It would easily hold 50 pounds. Price has gone up though. Last truckload i bought was about 10 years ago and it was about $9.00 a pound.

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Parinoidbugger About your RP3 I have just checked my records, and I have just about everything one could want by way of spec sheet info and test data on all the Bofors powders, from a howitzer (single base and doubles base) to a 22.

But no RP3. I have 1, 2,4,5,11, 12,13, 14,15 Their numbers are not in order of speed, so it is confusing. RP13 is a fast powder for a Hornet, whereas RP5 is very slow for the 7RemMag. Some of thes epowdes are well known to us with their commercal names, like Norma 201 and 203, RL15 and RL19. RP3 could be anything in between.

You can try calling Alliant at 540-639-7185 That is the phone number I used for the Radford plant.
 
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I know Ganderite has a lot of experience with all types of powders, and I readily bow to his expertise. However, I have a steel trap memory, and can distinctly remember buying powder from Old Thomas Higginson that he marketed as RP-3. His instructions were to use Norma 203 data for load development. I burned up a couple of 7 pounders in 22-250, 220 Swift, 6mm Remington and a couple of other chamberings. I used existing data for 203, and had no grief. The time would have been mid 70's, so not that long ago, really. I was living in Victoria, BC at the time, and I was there from 1975 - 1978. Regards, Eagleye.
 
My litterature from Bofors is dated 1997. it does not list RP-3 or RP -7. There is a note that RP- 7 is obsolete, so Bofors RP-3 could very well have been obsolete by 1997 as well. I have no Bofors data on it at all. The Bofors data I have relates to the powders I was being offered in 1997.

Bofors is a powder manufacturer. They sell to commecial oufits that package and promote powders. Alliant sells some of the Bofors powders as RL15, RL22 and RL 25. If you read the can label it might mention Bofors or Sweden.

Expro in Valleyfield, Quebec is/was another manufacturer. I think it now belongs to Alliant. I have lost track. Some of the Expro powders are well known as the IMR series of powers.

Tom Higginson labeled powders with his own unique numbers. Usually these numbers referred to what the powder manufacturer called the powder, as opposed to what it was called on the street. For that reason, if he had Bofors RP-3 and this was, or was similar to Norma 203, then it would make perfect sense for him to label it RP-3 and say "Use N203 data".

If you have 4 pounds of Bofors RP-3, you have a great powder. It would fall between 4895 and RL15 in speed. Use 4895 data, and work up from there.

I have fond memories of Tom. I first met him during the construction of his new house in about 1965.

But he sometimes labled powders with what they were similar to, rather than what they really were. At one time the powder he sold as 4350 was actually Vht160.

I came across that during the time I was supplying him his bulk IMR powders and some surplus military powders.

Edit: I assume your power is extruded?? I just notice that Bofors makes a ball powder and according to my handwritten notes from taliking to Alliant, Norma 203 Ball is the same as H380.
 
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A quote-"Edit: I assume your pow(d)er is extruded?? I just notice that Bofors makes a ball powder and according to my handwritten notes from taliking to Alliant, Norma 203 Ball is the same as H380."
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The Norma 203 powder we have used for many years is very fine, cylindrical, extruded. I just measured some of the little pieces with a digital caliper and each piece is .068" long and .025" across the cylinder.
 
"The Norma 203 powder we have used for many years is very fine, cylindrical, extruded. I just measured some of the little pieces with a digital caliper and each piece is .068" long and .025" across the cylinder. "

yes, that is what i would consider the usual Norma 203. But Bofors also makes a ball powder that Norma sells as 203B. I think this is a commecial powder, not a cannister powder. When Hodgen sells it as a cannister, they call it H380.


the powder nomaclature is complicated by the fact that the power manufactuers sell their powders in bulk to other companies that re-name them and sell them to the public.

It is made worse by the companies that do not use a locgical numerical naming system. Nobel, Vihtovourri and Norma are to be commended for their system. I have never used N165, for example, but the name tells me it is faster than N170 and slower than N160.

The Nobel cannister powders were the simplest to understand. The made 4 pistol powders - Pistol 1 (like Bulleseye), Pistol 2, pistol 3, and Pistol 4 (like 2400). They made 4 rifle powders Rifle 1 (like 4227) to Rifle 4 (like 4831).

Trivia - The IMR numbers are the experiment project numbers that lead to the powder. They are therefore chronological numbers. Not very useful.
 
Ganderite said:
"The Norma 203 powder we have used for many years is very fine, cylindrical, extruded. I just measured some of the little pieces with a digital caliper and each piece is .068" long and .025" across the cylinder. "

yes, that is what i would consider the usual Norma 203. But Bofors also makes a ball powder that Norma sells as 203B. I think this is a commecial powder, not a cannister powder. When Hodgen sells it as a cannister, they call it H380.


the powder nomaclature is complicated by the fact that the power manufactuers sell their powders in bulk to other companies that re-name them and sell them to the public.

It is made worse by the companies that do not use a locgical numerical naming system. Nobel, Vihtovourri and Norma are to be commended for their system. I have never used N165, for example, but the name tells me it is faster than N170 and slower than N160.

The Nobel cannister powders were the simplest to understand. The made 4 pistol powders - Pistol 1 (like Bulleseye), Pistol 2, pistol 3, and Pistol 4 (like 2400). They made 4 rifle powders Rifle 1 (like 4227) to Rifle 4 (like 4831).

Trivia - The IMR numbers are the experiment project numbers that lead to the powder. They are therefore chronological numbers. Not very useful.
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Thanks for the explanation. Norma 203 can only be had now at the odd gun show, so nice to know H380 is an equivilant.
Yes, there is nothing else so mixed up as powder designations. When I was regularily using Norma powders, I was also using Herters, and they had the exact opposite designation method. That is, Norma 200 was the fastest and every digit above that meant slower, in rifle powders. With Herters, 100 was the slowest and every digit above that was faster!
Ganderite, how did we survive all that?
 
It all just seemed to make sense. But my father never caught on. he could follow a receipe, but if he ever ran out of 4895 he would not have had a clue what to do with 4064 or H335.

BTW H380 is a ball powder. It is the same as Norma 203B. Tottaly different stoff than Norma 203.
 
Quote, Ganderite: Some of the Expro powders are well known as the IMR series of powers. Eagleye: I still have some expro powders that I am using [7900 (IMR 4831) and 8506 (IMR 4064)]

Tom Higginson labeled powders with his own unique numbers. Eagleye: How true!

If you have 4 pounds of Bofors RP-3, you have a great powder. It would fall between 4895 and RL15 in speed. Use 4895 data, and work up from there.

I have fond memories of Tom. I first met him during the construction of his new house in about 1965. Eagleye: I never met the man, face to face, since I have always been in BC, but I have had hours of conversations with him on the phone. I started buying from him around 1960, 22 ammo at first, powder a bit later. He was a great man, very obliging and accomodating. Sent me several powder samples free to try out and report back.

But he sometimes labled powders with what they were similar to, rather than what they really were. At one time the powder he sold as 4350 was actually N160. [I burned up a few pounds of this as well, a great powder till it started to deteriorate] Quote, Ganderite.[/

All very good info. I used the last of my RP-3 about 6 years ago, shot it away in my Swift. I also have used H380, but as Ganderite mentioned, it is different than old extruded N203. In my Swift with 55 grain bullets, H380 is 4 grains slower than N203.
Regards, Eagleye.
 
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