#### on close vs open

[RRCo.]

C.O.O. makes for a simple, some what safe and easy way to carry a round in the chamber
while out for a stroll.
Load your rifle, hold trigger and close bolt.
Round in chamber and firing pin uncocked.
Lift and drop bolt to ready the firing pin.

Isn't the firing pin is resting against the primer when the Mauser is uncocked? No thanks.

And safety aside, it's no faster than putting a rifle such as the Lee Enfield on half-####. Just pull to full #### by grasping the cocking piece and you're ready to fire.

The half-#### is safer because the bolt handle, trigger and firing pin are all "locked" without using the safety.

The firing pin spring not being under full compression, even if the pin was somehow released from half-####, which could only happen through damage or maladjustment of the sear and/or cocking piece, the cartridge is not likely to discharge.

I guess you could do that with a Mauser too; if they had cocking pieces you could actually grasp - and half-cocks.

 

[Kudu]

Mauser aficionado's can turn red in the face all they want; the LE was the AK-47 of it's time. It ruled the battlefield. Not as accurate, well made as Mauser's and no panache. Also the Bolt action rifle I'd want as a regular soldier.

Really?

Take another look at your history - try reading about what happened to the British armies great LE during the boer war! - the term Sitting ducks - comes to mind!


Start here - http://www.heliograph.com/trmgs/trmgs4/boer.shtml

 

[kombayotch]

VERY interesting! So the Norwegians have a course of fire that emphasizes accuracy and speed.

Its called "Landsskytterstevnet" of just "Skytterstevnet". 300m prone, 25 seconds at a lump sihouette target. The really good shooters get 16+ shots on the target (includes multiple reloads from 5 round mags).

 

[tokguy]

Really?

Take another look at your history - try reading about what happened to the British armies great LE during the boer war! - the term Sitting ducks - comes to mind!


Start here - http://www.heliograph.com/trmgs/trmgs4/boer.shtml

They got their *sses handed to them, but it was as much out-dated tactics as anything. And it was an irregular war ( these days...a police action) before the mighty British Army realized that the world had changed and they had not.
Now comparing the Krag to the M96 in that lil Cuba skirmish, you have a point.
Lets look at the First world war and see how the SMLE did against the Mauser...
The fast-operating Lee bolt-action and 10-round magazine capacity enabled a well-trained rifleman to perform the "mad minute" firing 20 to 30 aimed rounds in 60 seconds, making the Lee-Enfield the fastest military bolt-action rifle of the day. The current world record for aimed bolt-action fire was set in 1914 by a musketry instructor in the British Army—Sergeant Instructor Snoxall—who placed 38 rounds into a 12-inch-wide (300 mm) target at 300 yards (270 m) in one minute.[10] Some straight-pull bolt-action rifles were thought faster, but lacked the simplicity, reliability, and generous magazine capacity of the Lee-Enfield. Several First World War accounts tell of British troops repelling German attackers who subsequently reported that they had encountered machine guns, when in fact it was simply a group of well-trained riflemen armed with SMLE Mk III rifles.
Skinnerton quote there.

 

[BCRider]

I guess it depends on the gun.

I've got a few bolt action .22's. Of the lot I find the COO to be slicker to cycle than the COC CIL/Anschutz which requires a firm push to close.

On my Mosin Nagant I'd hate to have to push against the firmness of the mainspring if it were a COC style. It's bad enough when I need to #### it with the lever coming up.

I've never tried a mauser action rifle so I can't comment further. But as it stands now I guess I prefer COO.

That Norwegian event really is slick. I wish we had something similar over here.

 

[Suther]

Again with Sunray's seagull imitation; swoops in, squawks, drops a load of Guano and flies away to the next. Never looks back either. Too funny

Guano is bat poop. Just sayin'.

I find it easier to cycle a COC without taking it off my shoulder. That could be the guns I have as much as the action type though.

 

[tokguy]

Guano is bat poop. Just sayin'.

I find it easier to cycle a COC without taking it off my shoulder. That could be the guns I have as much as the action type though.

Duly noted. Apparently you know your sh*t, LMAO

 

[SIGP2101]

Again with Sunray's seagull imitation; swoops in, squawks, drops a load of Guano and flies away to the next. Never looks back either. Too funny

But impressive post count isn't it?

 

[kombayotch]

The fast-operating Lee bolt-action and 10-round magazine capacity enabled a well-trained rifleman to perform the "mad minute" firing 20 to 30 aimed rounds in 60 seconds, making the Lee-Enfield the fastest military bolt-action rifle of the day. The current world record for aimed bolt-action fire was set in 1914 by a musketry instructor in the British Army—Sergeant Instructor Snoxall—who placed 38 rounds into a 12-inch-wide (300 mm) target at 300 yards (270 m) in one minute.[10] Some straight-pull bolt-action rifles were thought faster, but lacked the simplicity, reliability, and generous magazine capacity of the Lee-Enfield. Several First World War accounts tell of British troops repelling German attackers who subsequently reported that they had encountered machine guns, when in fact it was simply a group of well-trained riflemen armed with SMLE Mk III rifles.
Skinnerton quote there.

That isn't any faster than the shooting in the videos I posted. The Norwegian record is something like 17-18 shots in 25 seconds. That in less than half the time and with 5 rd mags vs. 10 rd. mags.

Its clear from the videos that the speed limitation is the shooter and not the cocking mechanism.

 

[tokguy]

That is a neat little loader too, isn't it. Being that the average conscript might not be any smarter than the average roughneck...it probably wouldn't work for the masses.
But as far as action smoothness goes, the Krag gives nothing up to the Lee Enfield. I've an old sportered, low S.N. Krag that is awesome to handle and carry; but I'd wager that cantilever system under the follower wouldn't like mud at all.
Jeez, it's like this whole conversation is 'Cut & pasted' from Milsurp.

 

[Beermaker]

I think a lot has to do with 1) Is there any partial extraction and 2) type of cartridge case.
The LE is COC. There is no rotation of the bolt head on opening so no effort into trying to rotate a fires casing in the breech.
The casing is brass.
The MN is COO. There is bolt head rotation so there is a possibility you are trying or are rotating the fired casing in the breech.
IF you are shooting steel cased lacquer coated ammo you are stuck after a few shots aka sticky bolt syndrome. I use the steel copper washed PRC ammo now and have not had any issues with sticky bolt since. As mentioned earlier the COO is only partial as you still need some force to close the bolt on an MN.

These are only 2 examples of course as my Savage Mark II is COO but the weaker striker spring is far different than the LE and MN. You have to compare apples to apples so cartridges have to be similar i.e. .303, 7.62x54r, 30.06 etc

I haven't done any testing yet but I bought a second bolt for my m44 and turned it into COC.

 

[tjhaile]

C.O.O. makes for a simple, some what safe and easy way to carry a round in the chamber
while out for a stroll.
Load your rifle, hold trigger and close bolt.
Round in chamber and firing pin uncocked.
Lift and drop bolt to ready the firing pin.

This is an extremely bad idea. The firing pin rests against the primer, so that the rifle can be made to fire by impact or being dropped. Use the safety if you want to keep a round chambered.

Really?

Take another look at your history - try reading about what happened to the British armies great LE during the boer war! - the term Sitting ducks - comes to mind!


Start here - http://www.heliograph.com/trmgs/trmgs4/boer.shtml

If the British and Boer armies had swapped rifles (either of which was #### on closing), the result would have been the same. Type of rifle cannot make up for defective training and tactics.

I think a lot has to do with 1) Is there any partial extraction and 2) type of cartridge case.
The LE is COC. There is no rotation of the bolt head on opening so no effort into trying to rotate a fires casing in the breech.
The casing is brass.
The MN is COO. There is bolt head rotation so there is a possibility you are trying or are rotating the fired casing in the breech.
IF you are shooting steel cased lacquer coated ammo you are stuck after a few shots aka sticky bolt syndrome. I use the steel copper washed PRC ammo now and have not had any issues with sticky bolt since. As mentioned earlier the COO is only partial as you still need some force to close the bolt on an MN.

These are only 2 examples of course as my Savage Mark II is COO but the weaker striker spring is far different than the LE and MN. You have to compare apples to apples so cartridges have to be similar i.e. .303, 7.62x54r, 30.06 etc

I haven't done any testing yet but I bought a second bolt for my m44 and turned it into COC.

Lee Enfields have primary extraction, too. The bolt face does not rotate against the case head, but the bolt is cammed backwards on opening and forwards on closing.

 

[ENFIELD1911]

AP * that was an interesting video in the comparison of a M93 to a M98. In a later post a comparison is made of a rotating bolt head vs a non rotating bolt head in reference COC to COO. Now my question is this, does a M93 have a rotating bolt head? If it does how do the two rifles compare in action cycling

 

[TheTooner]

Guano is bat poop. Just sayin'.

...

Duly noted. Apparently you know your sh*t, LMAO

Suther knows some sh*t. Most sources say guano is from seabirds, many include bats, a few even include seals.

 

[TheTooner]

Really?

Take another look at your history - try reading about what happened to the British armies great LE during the boer war! - the term Sitting ducks - comes to mind!


Start here - http://www.heliograph.com/trmgs/trmgs4/boer.shtml

"Sitting ducks" would be a reflection of inappropriate tactics. The British military establishment preferred make the excuse their troops were outgunned to the alternative - admitting irregulars ran rings 'round them and shot them up. The Boer commandos were largely drawn from rural/farming folk who hunted - useful practical training in marksmanship and guerilla tactics. The British soldier was less likely to know anything about shooting other than what the Army taught, and whatever they said to the public at home, the British Army hoisted in the lesson from the Boers that their soldiers needed better training to make the most of their Lee Enfields. On the re-test administered by Mauser-equipped Germans in 1914-18 the British soldier and his Lee-Enfield got much better scores.

 

[Aries-]

The more I think about it, the more #### on closing makes sense to me. #### on opening adds more effort to the part of the bolt cycle that already requires the most effort, since primary extraction occurs during the lift of the bolt.

If your gun is taking any effort to open you may want to have your chamber looked at. Even hot loads in my tikka I can open with my baby finger.

Only thing I can say is C.O.C is not the greatest for me for sitting at a bench shooting. The ammount of effort needed to push the bolt forward and pull the fp back really shifts things around on the bags and rest.

 

[Aries-]

C.O.O. makes for a simple, some what safe and easy way to carry a round in the chamber
while out for a stroll.
Load your rifle, hold trigger and close bolt.
Round in chamber and firing pin uncocked.
Lift and drop bolt to ready the firing pin.

I woukdnt recomend that. That would have the firing pin resting right on the primer with spring pressure on it. And you cant even put the safty on properly to keep the gun going off if you bang the butt stock.

 

[guntech]

... all this debate - for naught... The fine commercial bolt action rifles made today are not going back to #### on closing... the purchasing mass is happy...

 

[AP]

AP * that was an interesting video in the comparison of a M93 to a M98. In a later post a comparison is made of a rotating bolt head vs a non rotating bolt head in reference COC to COO. Now my question is this, does a M93 have a rotating bolt head? If it does how do the two rifles compare in action cycling

the M93 bolt head is integral with the bolt body exactly like the M98 eg it cannot be unscrewed like a Lee Enfield;

Here is a very good (and balanced I think) discussion regarding coc.. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...ing-To-####-On-Opening-For-m96-Swedish-Mauser

Makes you think doesnt it?

 

[kennymo]

"Sitting ducks" would be a reflection of inappropriate tactics. The British military establishment preferred make the excuse their troops were outgunned to the alternative - admitting irregulars ran rings 'round the and shot them up. The Boer commandos were largely drawn from rural/farming folk who hunted - useful practical training in marksmanship and guerilla tactics. The British soldier was less likely to know anything about shooting other than what the Army taught, and whatever they said to the public at home, the British Army hoisted in the lesson from the Boers that their soldiers needed better training to make the most of their Lee Enfields. On the re-test administered by Mauser-equipped Germans in 1914-18 the British soldier and his Lee-Enfield got much better scores.

An interesting note on the tactics, Canadians were apparently held in much higher regard by the Boers. They disliked their habit of trying not to stand on top of a hill or rise and silhouette themselves as the Brits were prone to.

#### on close is mildly faster IMO. The Lee and P14/17 designs in particular are quick handling for me. My K98 is considerably slower to operate, though my modern push feed hunting rifles seem to keep it a bit closer.