One powder for both .38 Spl. & .357 Mag.?

[josquin]

A friend of mine is getting into shooting after a long absence and has acquired a 6" S&W 686 (nice first handgun!) I am strongly advising him to sign on with CGN.

He will be handloading as well and is completely new to it. I was over at his place today as he unpacked his new reloading gear, explaining a bit about handloading procedures, but as I am new to reloading for handguns myself (.45 ACP only so far) I thought it prudent to ask a question on his behalf.

He will be shooting both .38 spl. and .357 mag. and to keep things as simple as possible it might be useful to use a powder that will work satisfactorily (albeit not ideally) for both. I'm suggesting that he buy either cast bullets from The Bullet Barn here in BC or Frontier CMJ from Marstar.

According to the Hodgdon manual, H4227 looks like a good candidate. My Lee manual even shows decent performance from Alliant 2400 although it's obviously best for the .357. Any other suggestions from CGN cyberspace?

Stuart

 

[joebanana]

2400 is very accurate in both and gives high velocity if that is what your looking for. Tightgroup works well and is very economical.

 

[1shot]

Most fast(ish) pistol/shotgun will do both.
I've used Alliant Greendot in .38spl/.357

 

[gaudzy]

I always had good results with HP 38 out of my Ruger GP 100 ( still kicking myself for selling it!!!)

 

[colinjw]

Here is my opinion, for what it is worth.

2400 powder is a very slow burning powder . Magnum primers work best with it but with the new Winchester primers that may not be an issue. It would not be my first choice though.

HP38 ( Win 231 same powder ) is a very good powder for both. A ball powder that is easy to find, measures well & is economical. My only complaint is that it tends to leave a lot of soot, smoke & residue.

Titegroup. Greendot, Unique 800X & some others work well, are accurate , clean burning & economical.

 

[acrashb]

I use titegroup for both. You lose top velocity in 357, but it's close enough.

 

[Andy]

If he wants a single powder that's decent for both cartridges and a wide range of bullet weights, it will have to be a medium fast powder. I like Unique.

 

[anchor3593]

I would forget about reloading .38 - just buy .357, shoot them, then reload the longer cases to milder loads - it prevents the buildup of lead/carbon in the cylinder in front of the shorter .38 cases. If the ring gets bad, shooting the longer loads can cause overpressure. This has blown .454 cylinders after extended use of .45LC.

 

[Garand]

I happen to like W231 for both calibers. Personally if you want to use both brass, then buy a .38/357 Flexhone from Brownells. I use both .44 Special and .44 Mag in my Ruger Vaquero and if extraction ever becomes a problem then I bring out the Flexhone and polish the chambers, problem solved. I've never had that problem on my .357 S&W M66 though. But I do have a Flexhone in both calibers that attaches very easy to any drill.

 

[t-star]

I happen to like W231 for both calibers. Personally if you want to use both brass, then buy a .38/357 Flexhone from Brownells. I use both .44 Special and .44 Mag in my Ruger Vaquero and if extraction ever becomes a problem then I bring out the Flexhone and polish the chambers, problem solved. I've never had that problem on my .357 S&W M66 though. But I do have a Flexhone in both calibers that attaches very easy to any drill.

hear, hear- i use nothing but ww231 in everything- it's only the real top end magnums that"suffer" and i'm not there yet anyway, ability wise- that means 9mm, 45 acp, and 44 mag, all with 231- the 44 i just download a bit- i've done the 44 special thing and am warming up to 44 mag levels- 9 grains of 231- there's also WARNINGS ABOUT DETONATIONS when you get into the powders that are used for the TOP END LOADS as well as roughly DOUBLING OR BETTER the powder charge

 

[Andy]

Good advice! Use 357 brass and load her up and down. You'll likely need 38 +P loads to get 38 Special velocities out of a 357 case, but a chrony can tell you that. Win 231 and Titegroup seem to work well from 90gr to 170gr bullets.

 

[josquin]

...You'll likely need 38 +P loads to get 38 Special velocities out of a 357 case...

Hmmm... could you explain?

I think that in my friend's case (no pun intended) as reloading is a totally new and slightly forbidding area, he might feel more comfortable with the two distinct cases, at least at first. As has been pointed out, however, he will have to be careful about fouling buildup at the chamber shoulder. I'm sure he will clean the gun after every range session and I doubt he will be shooting enough rounds each time for a serious problem to develop if he "scrubs up" regularly.

As he is totally new to all this, buying a Flexhone is unlikely to be a route he will want to go; at the moment the K.I.S.S. principle will be important, I think!

T-Star- thanks for the reminder about reduced loads with top-end powders. I don't think 2400 falls into that category but I am well aware of NOT reducing H110 (=W296) more than 3%.

Thanks for all the advice, folks. It looks like there are a number of options. At this point, I don't think he's concerned with maxxing out the .357 side of things. When he becomes more comfortable and experienced, I'll get him into H110 if he wants to do that.

Stuart

 

[acrashb]

I'm sure he will clean the gun after every range session and I doubt he will be shooting enough rounds each time for a serious problem to develop if he "scrubs up" regularly.

Sounds like a lot of work - if your buddy just uses 357 cases and down-loads, he'll be fine. I use .38special loads in .357 cases, no problem (another poster mentioned possibly having to use more powder, no doubt because of the larger case volume, but it hasn't been my experience).

The key would be to use MTM or equivalent boxes, and just label them ".38 loads" and ".357 loads" to keep everything sorted. Getting the powder ring out is a pain.

 

[H4831]

Quote, "2400 powder is a very slow burning powder . Magnum primers work best with it but with the new Winchester primers that may not be an issue. It would not be my first choice though."

Certainly some misunderstanding about 2400. It is one of the very best for magnum revolver loads, a bit faster than H4227. I never heard of having to use magnum primers with it. It works flawlessly for me with standard primers. In fact, 2400 powder is one of the very oldest powders and huge amounts of it were used before someone thought of a thing called a magnum primer.
It was the powder Elmer Keith used in developing both the 357 and 44 magnums. All with no magnum primers.

Quote- "hear, hear- i use nothing but ww231 in everything- it's only the real top end magnums that"suffer" and i'm not there yet anyway, ability wise- that means 9mm, 45 acp, and 44 mag, all with 231- the 44 i just download a bit- i've done the 44 special thing and am warming up to 44 mag levels- 9 grains of 231- there's also WARNINGS ABOUT DETONATIONS when you get into the powders that are used for the TOP END LOADS as well as roughly DOUBLING OR BETTER the powder charge."

231 is much too fast for magnum loading. It, along with Bullseye and some others, is great for light target loads in revolvers, but highly unsuited for heavier loads. Your 9 grains in a 44 mag will give you about 950 fps, with normal 44 bullets of about 250 grains. 10.1 grain is given as maximum load in the 44 mag. At this loading the pressure has reached the top levels for the 44 mag loadings, but because it is so fast burning, the length of the pressure high point is so short that the bullet will only reach to the 1000 fps class.
With proper powders, such as W296/H110 or 2400, the same bullet can safely be driven to the 1500 fps class in a magnum revolver.
Never mind about "detonations" with pistol powders. I wonder who thought that one up? The big, really big, danger of using the very fast powders is in getting too much powder in the case. A double charge of your 9 grains of 231 would turn your revolver into a hand grenade. I shudder to think of what even two or three grains over max of 231 would do to the gun. Extreme care must be used when using such powders.

 

[t-star]

Quote, "2400 powder is a very slow burning powder . Magnum primers work best with it but with the new Winchester primers that may not be an issue. It would not be my first choice though."

Certainly some misunderstanding about 2400. It is one of the very best for magnum revolver loads, a bit faster than H4227. I never heard of having to use magnum primers with it. It works flawlessly for me with standard primers. In fact, 2400 powder is one of the very oldest powders and huge amounts of it were used before someone thought of a thing called a magnum primer.
It was the powder Elmer Keith used in developing both the 357 and 44 magnums. All with no magnum primers.

Quote- "hear, hear- i use nothing but ww231 in everything- it's only the real top end magnums that"suffer" and i'm not there yet anyway, ability wise- that means 9mm, 45 acp, and 44 mag, all with 231- the 44 i just download a bit- i've done the 44 special thing and am warming up to 44 mag levels- 9 grains of 231- there's also WARNINGS ABOUT DETONATIONS when you get into the powders that are used for the TOP END LOADS as well as roughly DOUBLING OR BETTER the powder charge."

231 is much too fast for magnum loading. It, along with Bullseye and some others, is great for light target loads in revolvers, but highly unsuited for heavier loads. Your 9 grains in a 44 mag will give you about 950 fps, with normal 44 bullets of about 250 grains. 10.1 grain is given as maximum load in the 44 mag. At this loading the pressure has reached the top levels for the 44 mag loadings, but because it is so fast burning, the length of the pressure high point is so short that the bullet will only reach to the 1000 fps class.
With proper powders, such as W296/H110 or 2400, the same bullet can safely be driven to the 1500 fps class in a magnum revolver.
Never mind about "detonations" with pistol powders. I wonder who thought that one up? The big, really big, danger of using the very fast powders is in getting too much powder in the case. A double charge of your 9 grains of 231 would turn your revolver into a hand grenade. I shudder to think of what even two or three grains over max of 231 would do to the gun. Extreme care must be used when using such powders.

just to give you an idea of exactly how much your information differs from mine, in my speer 11 , it shows 10.6 as a STARTING LOAD FOR 231 using a 240 grain jacketed, for 1146 fps and 11.6 for 1219 as a TOP END
moreover , the winchester brochure shows 11.2 for 1280
there's also a note at the foot of the page:
note: 296 powder is considered to be one of the best powders for use in magnum revolver cartridges.
for such loads we strongly recommend the use of a winchester or magnum primer and a very heavy crimp( high bullet pull)
failure to follow this procedure could result in poor igition and /or squib loads under extreme circumstances, particularly in loads where less than 90% of the available powder space is being used( low loading density)
DO NOT REDUCE powder charges with 296 powder. these loads must be used EXACTLY AS SHOWN . a reduction in powder or change in components can cause dangerous pressures
winchester brochure page 28

i also load on a progressive, so there is NO chance of ever getting a double charge

 

[Bobby Ironsights]

Hmmm... could you explain?

I think that in my friend's case (no pun intended) as reloading is a totally new and slightly forbidding area, he might feel more comfortable with the two distinct cases, at least at first. As has been pointed out, however, he will have to be careful about fouling buildup at the chamber shoulder. I'm sure he will clean the gun after every range session and I doubt he will be shooting enough rounds each time for a serious problem to develop if he "scrubs up" regularly.

As he is totally new to all this, buying a Flexhone is unlikely to be a route he will want to go; at the moment the K.I.S.S. principle will be important, I think!

Stuart

The KISS is important. I advise just shooting one, or the other, not both.

I was a first time reloader this summer and I bought a dan wesson .357 magnum revolver. I was nervous about recoil from the .357 and so got some .38 special as well. I bought new remington brass in bags from ellwood epps.

I loaded with hogdon clays powder in my .357, just 0.4 grains over the minimum load and discovered something my reading should have told me. Magnum is just a word, marketing more than anything else and doesn't make a round more powerful/harder to shoot/scary.

I found my instructor's .38 specials that he loaded up to make minimum power class in IPSC shooting, which he assured me was far from the maximum load that .38 special can take, were more snappy than my reloading data manula minimum charge .357 magnum loads.

I also found that in my gun at least, which is a target revolver, it only took two full cylinders of cast bullets in .38 special to give me problems. I had to push the .357 magnums in after, and so I extracted them, and some gunk fell out when I tapped it. I'm not sure whether it was mostly fouling/lube or lead....but.....

I also found that .357 gave slightly better accuracy than the .38's, and I noticed when buying my pistol that Dan Wesson cut chambers for both instead of using the one size fits all approach. (actually they also cut for the .357 maximum too).

I'm think I might sell my .38 special dies and brass at the beginning of next season.

Just because you "can" use .38's in your .357, doesn't mean you should, I'm finding out. Also, light loads in .357 really are quite mellow, even for a newbie in a wheelchair like me.

 

[t-star]

The KISS is important. I advise just shooting one, or the other, not both.

I was a first time reloader this summer and I bought a dan wesson .357 magnum revolver. I was nervous about recoil from the .357 and so got some .38 special as well. I bought new remington brass in bags from ellwood epps.

I loaded with hogdon clays powder in my .357, just 0.4 grains over the minimum load and discovered something my reading should have told me. Magnum is just a word, marketing more than anything else and doesn't make a round more powerful/harder to shoot/scary.

I found my instructor's .38 specials that he loaded up to make minimum power class in IPSC shooting, which he assured me was far from the maximum load that .38 special can take, were more snappy than my reloading data manula minimum charge .357 magnum loads.

I also found that in my gun at least, which is a target revolver, it only took two full cylinders of cast bullets in .38 special to give me problems. I had to push the .357 magnums in after, and so I extracted them, and some gunk fell out when I tapped it. I'm not sure whether it was mostly fouling/lube or lead....but.....

I also found that .357 gave slightly better accuracy than the .38's, and I noticed when buying my pistol that Dan Wesson cut chambers for both instead of using the one size fits all approach. (actually they also cut for the .357 maximum too).

I'm think I might sell my .38 special dies and brass at the beginning of next season.

Just because you "can" use .38's in your .357, doesn't mean you should, I'm finding out. Also, light loads in .357 really are quite mellow, even for a newbie in a wheelchair like me.

you have dies for BOTH 38 special and 357?- all you do is turn your seating die up by about 2-3 turns- the REST of the die set is exactly the same

 

[H4831]

The Winchester guide I am now looking at doesn't show 231 in the 44 mag, with bullets heavier than 240. This shows a max of 11 grains with a lead swc, for a pressure of 38,000. I did have a Winchester loading chart that showed 10.1 max, with 260 grain bullet.
I am well aware of what Winchester states abut using 296 exactly as shown, I have used that powder for at least 25 years, but never used a magnum primer. It is well established that H110 is the same as 296, and for many years after WW2, H110 was a very popular powder for reduced loads, in both revolver and rifle. I never once read that magnum primers should be used, nor have I ever heard of anyone running into difficulty with using H110 at reduced loads. I used it for reduced loads in various calibres and liked its performance.
Some years ago the United States got on a binge whereby they sued everybody in sight, for any harm, sometimes real, sometimes imagined. Of course, anything to do with firearms was particularly vulnerable to being caught up in a law suit. Manufacturers of pistols have been successfully sued, because their firearm in the hands of a villan, killed some one! The argument being, "If it wasn't for your firearm my husband wouldn't have been killed."
Piper aircraft, one of the oldest manufacturers of aircraft in the US, pulled out of the United States, because they were being sued for aircraft accidents involving their aircraft, even though the crash was caused by the pilot!
About this time the manufacturers of gun powder, and other components, had their large contingent of layers look at anything that could get them out of responsibility for mishaps. This is why so many things in modern reloading books are contrary to what reloaders have been doing for years. Without a doubt, this is how it came about that it is now unsafe (according to the books) to load any powder lighter than what the book shows.
I'll stick with my phrase, "I wonder who thought that one up."

 

[t-star]

The Winchester guide I am now looking at doesn't show 231 in the 44 mag, with bullets heavier than 240. This shows a max of 11 grains with a lead swc, for a pressure of 38,000. I did have a Winchester loading chart that showed 10.1 max, with 260 grain bullet.
I am well aware of what Winchester states abut using 296 exactly as shown, I have used that powder for at least 25 years, but never used a magnum primer. It is well established that H110 is the same as 296, and for many years after WW2, H110 was a very popular powder for reduced loads, in both revolver and rifle. I never once read that magnum primers should be used, nor have I ever heard of anyone running into difficulty with using H110 at reduced loads. I used it for reduced loads in various calibres and liked its performance.
Some years ago the United States got on a binge whereby they sued everybody in sight, for any harm, sometimes real, sometimes imagined. Of course, anything to do with firearms was particularly vulnerable to being caught up in a law suit. Manufacturers of pistols have been successfully sued, because their firearm in the hands of a villan, killed some one! The argument being, "If it wasn't for your firearm my husband wouldn't have been killed."
Piper aircraft, one of the oldest manufacturers of aircraft in the US, pulled out of the United States, because they were being sued for aircraft accidents involving their aircraft, even though the crash was caused by the pilot!
About this time the manufacturers of gun powder, and other components, had their large contingent of layers look at anything that could get them out of responsibility for mishaps. This is why so many things in modern reloading books are contrary to what reloaders have been doing for years. Without a doubt, this is how it came about that it is now unsafe (according to the books) to load any powder lighter than what the book shows.
I'll stick with my phrase, "I wonder who thought that one up."

winchester ball powder propellant loading data for shotshells, centerfire rifle and pistol cartridges, 10 th edition page 28-factory load calls for 11.2 with a 240 lead- very much the same data as you have- and 240 is big enough as far as i need to go- besides i get bullets for fairly cheap- 89 /1000- as for the detonation thing, i'll look and see if i can find data to back that up as well- they do ADMIT IT IS A RARE CONDITION-as far as piper is concerned , they just finally admitted that CESSNA was a better aircraft- esp after the tomahawk.beech fiasco

 

[corney]

Here is my opinion, for what it is worth.

2400 powder is a very slow burning powder . Magnum primers work best with it but with the new Winchester primers that may not be an issue. It would not be my first choice though.

HP38 ( Win 231 same powder ) is a very good powder for both. A ball powder that is easy to find, measures well & is economical. My only complaint is that it tends to leave a lot of soot, smoke & residue.

Titegroup. Greendot, Unique 800X & some others work well, are accurate , clean burning & economical.

Is HP 38 and Win 231 the same powder? Good thing I bought both

I find the HP 38 a dirty powder, some shooting buddies on the Island are big Accurate #5 fans. For some reason or other I can't seem to be able to find it. Apparently it is cleaner.