Ontario Moose Hunt - What's Everyone Going To Do Now?

galamb said:
I will hunt as per normal.

But I'm one of those guys that hunts "north of north".

Been hunting WMU 25 for over 40 years now.

Yes it's a 10 hour drive to the train station in Cochrane then a few more hours "north" on the Train.

And then we get "dumped off" at the side of the tracks with whatever gear you can carry, because while you could load up an ATV (at extra cost of course) the ground is just "not suitable" - swamps, peat bogs and stunted black spruce, the remnants of are so inter-twined that it's difficult to walk, forget driving an ATV.

So all the hunting is done from a primitive camp (propane stove/heater are the luxuries of course) ON FOOT.

The moose must be shot and drop where it can be recovered - forget trying to follow a blood trail, you wouldn't recover it - so a precise hunt where anything but the "perfect" shot is not even considered.

And it's because of all of the above that a single pool 1 hunter can pull a Cow or a Bull just about every second year. The difference now will be, because of the proposed changes to calf hunting, that in years we "don't pull an adult tag", we will save some gas and there will be no hunt that year.

Unfortunately I and my hunting buddy are getting old and that is a young man's hunt, but still have one or two more left in me :)
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If you're looking for someone to hunt with, I'm in my early 40's and looking for something like you're describing.
 
I guess if you can't get tags you could always use an outfitter and buy their tags. I doubt their numbers will be cut like the rest of us. We have been talking about doing this the last couple years.
 
freddyfour said:
I guess if you can't get tags you could always use an outfitter and buy their tags. I doubt their numbers will be cut like the rest of us. We have been talking about doing this the last couple years.
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Funny you say that. There was an "outfitter" where we were...of an indigenous sort...that was offering tags for sale. We were not interested.
 
freddyfour said:
I guess if you can't get tags you could always use an outfitter and buy their tags. I doubt their numbers will be cut like the rest of us. We have been talking about doing this the last couple years.
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New Outfitters won't get tags. Outfitters that currently get tags will continue to. (For now) IF they relinquish their tags/business, they won't get them again.
The MNR has been offering up bow tags (in replacement) of gun tags for outfitters. So if an outfitter has a gun tag, the outfitter can generally get 2 archery tags instead, should they opt for it.
A quick peek reveals that a lot of outfitters are not even advertising moose hunting anymore. Some will advertise moose hunt packages, but the hunters must supply their own tag.
And those outfitters that DO have a gun or bow tags, they're spoken for quick, and generally by the same return customers from year to year.

And the ones they have are worth a MINT!!
 
Many issues are taking place regarding the moose hunt. First off the MNR hasn't the financial resources to run a pair of Hot Dog carts at the Canadian Tire parking lot let alone manage the natural resources of this province. There budget has been cut so bad they have no money for any sort of realistic counting of any animal species. So they really have no idea what the moose population is. Another problem is they will not listen to the general public when we tell them some areas like some fellas have stated have strong healthy moose populations and others areas the populations are low to scarce. From there own sources they know about the scarcity of moose in some areas of the northern WMU so there reaction is to cut tags everywhere. The most valuable asset the province has is its natural resources and the successive provincial governments has reduced the MNR budgets so badly they literal have ceased to realistically operate. Coupled with the fact the MNR has always held a very high opinion of themselves that they know it all as they went to school, and the general public is ignorant certainly does not help the situation.

Moose hunting in Ontario can be classed as a fall male institution. As previously written so many fellas look forward to heading north in the fall with there buddies to hunt and just be in the bush. It is a total recharge of ones batteries and meets the needs of a primal male requirement to be out on the land hunting and fishing to bring food home for ones family. Like many I have been involved in this traditional fall pilgrimage since 1970 so I have seen, lived and experienced the evolution of Ontario moose hunting from the old days to the present. The MNR (Lands and Forests) has spouted many lies, theories, half truths and BS over the years. Many years ago when the lottery was introduced it was only supposed to be a temporary measure for ten years to supposedly double the moose population that we were told was declining rapidly and this drastic measure of a lottery was needed to regenerate the moose population. Shooting calves we were told was a great idea as most of them die anyways. Well we all know that the moose population never doubled, not even close, and shooting or killing off the new off spring of any species only ensures it certain demise. Imagine if a famer killed off all his new born cows and chickens each year. Same idea with moose. But the MNR folks all went to school and know differently...! The original MNR folks who conceived all these ideas of course are all now retired on government indexed pensions but before leaving instilled there theories on those remaining. Bottom line is there present plan hasn't worked and never will, and they now don't have the funds, man power or basic intelligence to change it.

In my opinion there is no easy, simple quick fix. The facts are in some areas we have lots of moose, and in others they are scarce, and we have a whole bunch of fellas wanting to go moose hunting and there not enough moose in the good areas for everyone to hunt there. So perhaps increasing the tags available in the good areas and deceasing or closing the season in the low populated areas would be an idea.
It has taken many years to get into this mess and it will take even longer to get out. First thing we may all want to seriously consider is to holler long and hard at our provincial governments to increase MNR funding and our total displeasure at the way the moose hunt and other matters are being dealt with. We are voters and politicians will eventually listen to voters if we are loud and persistent enough.
 
TedNugent said:
I'm not kidding, if I could get in on an area to hunt moose year after year, I'd go to great lengths
to make it work.
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Anybody can... it only takes a little investigation/scouting, the right gear and the will power and muscle to get it done. I have moved areas 7 times in the past 10 years... the previous 30 years were in only three locations, but as tags get cut more and more, it requires moving around to get tags... all scouting was done via google earth/1:50,000 maps/phone... we go up with one truck, pulling a 5X10' utility trailer with boat/motor/canoe and camping gear... we hunt by water and portage into undisturbed areas... anyone can do it... you just have to sacrifice and work to get it done.
 
hoytcanon said:
Anybody can... it only takes a little investigation/scouting, the right gear and the will power and muscle to get it done. I have moved areas 7 times in the past 10 years... the previous 30 years were in only three locations, but as tags get cut more and more, it requires moving around to get tags... all scouting was done via google earth/1:50,000 maps/phone... we go up with one truck, pulling a 5X10' utility trailer with boat/motor/canoe and camping gear... we hunt by water and portage into undisturbed areas... anyone can do it... you just have to sacrifice and work to get it done.
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Looks like I'm going to have to do just that if I'm going to have any success at all.
 
Yes, as stated above, there are places to go it's just that most aren't within a four to six hour drive from home, and that tends to keep many away.

We lose two days getting in to where we hunt and you can't drive in - that stops 95% of hunters which is why tags are still available for a "party of 2".

I started goose hunting up there with my Dad back when you simply bought a "Moose licence", that also included a bear tag and you could hunt anywhere in Ontario. (remember when) but didn't hunt moose up there until after the WMU/Pool system came into effect.

Up until (now) we (two hunters in a pool) have always got a tag every second year (for sure) and sometimes pull a cow tag in the in between years (try doing that as a pool 2 hunter in just about every other WMU).

(TedNugent - I sent you a PM)
 
Nismojunky said:
They should stop the hunt for 3-5 years to let the population rebound a bit I love moose hunting but the last 2 years have been a bust with little to no fresh sign it couldnt hurt, I would have to hunt deer a bit more thats all
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What's odd about this whole thing is before the MNRF changed anything every moose hunter I spoke to was complaining about not seeing any moose and numbers have been on a steady decline. Then when the MNRF acknowledged that something needed to be changed to address the dwindling populations in many WMU's the very same hunters became angry towards the MNRF who is trying to help the moose rebound by limiting tags and making changes.

When the population of any species is in decline you reduce hunting or fishing pressure to help the population rebound. It's not about blaming humans or not, it's the fact that humans are the easiest to control which makes limiting tags a good, yet hard for some hunters to swallow, solution.


Native moose hunting needs to be addressed as well.
 
I just don't like the "blanket approach".

Certainly the moose numbers may be down in some/many WMU's - maybe even the ones with the majority of outfitters catering to "non-resident" hunters.

But to say because these 5 or 10 WMU's are down on moose that every area is down on moose (when they admit they don't have the budget or the resources to actually look, they are using computer models), is just wrong.

If the science/study for a given area justifies tag reductions, season changes or an all out cancellation of the season that's one thing. But to say there are no moose in Hearst because the American Hunters are not seeing moose in Lake of the Woods (which is kinda the way this process has unfolded), I have a problem with that.

In (my) WMU the tag quota's have stayed stable going well back into the 1990's - so why will "my calf hunt" be curtailed? The adult tags being stable indicate the herd is stable where I hunt, so why is my area affected because of a problem 1000 miles away?
 
galamb said:
I just don't like the "blanket approach".

Certainly the moose numbers may be down in some/many WMU's - maybe even the ones with the majority of outfitters catering to "non-resident" hunters.

But to say because these 5 or 10 WMU's are down on moose that every area is down on moose (when they admit they don't have the budget or the resources to actually look, they are using computer models), is just wrong.

If the science/study for a given area justifies tag reductions, season changes or an all out cancellation of the season that's one thing. But to say there are no moose in Hearst because the American Hunters are not seeing moose in Lake of the Woods (which is kinda the way this process has unfolded), I have a problem with that.

In (my) WMU the tag quota's have stayed stable going well back into the 1990's - so why will "my calf hunt" be curtailed? The adult tags being stable indicate the herd is stable where I hunt, so why is my area affected because of a problem 1000 miles away?
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Have to agree with that. The province is too large and diverse for them to lay blanket changes across it in it's entirety when only small sections of it are lacking populations which they cannot even prove.
And thank again for all the info Graham, given me lots to think about.
 
One more piece for this thread.

Some of us remember when the WMU/Quota system was put in place, back in 1983 by the MNR or was it still Land's and Forest's (memory is failing).

Anyhow, after all the uproar they produced a Moose hunting booklet to go along with the 1984 regs.

Here was (some of) the wisdom of the day from the very same org that is now proposing the reduced/restricted calf harvest.

In 1984, the book illustrated and explained intensely the importance of harvesting calves. The handbook stated three reasons why hunters could shoot more calves without affecting the population growth.

1.Predators and harsh winters meant many calves would not make it to adulthood and it was strongly suggested that not all calves are needed to replace adults.

2. Calf harvests were low at the time because hunters at the time would shoot the cow “bigger” (remember, there was no quota in prior years, you could shoot ANY moose). Hunting calves was difficult compared to adults and hunting opportunities on calves could be increased with no harm to the herd.

3.Scandinavian countries had dramatic increases in their herd with similar systems and calves back then were 30 to 40 percent of the harvest.

So the real question is - did they have it right back then or do they have it right now OR do they really not have a clue what they are doing???
 
I believe focusing on calves is a solid strategy... but done via a tag system, not a wide open season... there needs to be some ability to control harvest numbers... I think the biggest problem is that the MNR has NO CLUE what the population is... over the past number of years they have relied less on accurate physical counts and more on hunter report cards... without accurate numbers, there has been a fear based, knee-jerk reaction.

I won't even get into the native harvest question.
 
Agree, it they came out with a calf tag program I could swallow that a little easier than the current proposal.

But as you note, they need some good data on the population in any given WMU.

Of course, that is not going to happen which is why they get out the blanket and throw it over us all.

But hey, you can still hunt moose every year, for a few days anyhow, so give us your 60 bucks for the licence and say thanks that we didn't close it all together - right?

(sorry, still venting - this has been rehashed and doesn't matter anyhow - the new rules were "cast in stone" long before they were ever "proposed" to the public)
 
I have said it before and I will say it again, the changes being made are more about revenue generation than moose management. I agree some of the moose herd needs some intense management. I am OK with making some sacrifices ( no calf harvest, even a total closure for hunting for a while) so my younger friends and their children will have a healthy herd to enjoy. I find it hard to swallow a continued wide open harvest of calves. But I know why we have that harvest, to keep hunters buying licences with the 2.00 service charge that is taxable with the HST attached..... rant off.

Darryl
 
I hunt area 28, which is likely the hardest hit area of any with tags dropping from 450 ish to around 15 to 20 total. In the past ten years we have seen increases in sightings. Regularly seeing 15-20 adult moose in a week of hunting. No offence to some hunters but because certain groups aren't seeing many moose does not mean the population has dropped. We talk to groups that never leave there pickups and constantly complain of low populations. I did read that the MNR was saying "moose ticks" were to blame for our tags going down in 28. Not really sure how they saw ticks from an airplane but they are the "experts". On another note I was talking to a local who happens to be native, hunting the same cut and admiring my 50" bull Id just shot, say he is a lot happier when the first few weeks are done and we are gone home so they can have the cut to themselves and shoot whatever as they need no tags. They were very nice guys just a little hard to swallow.
 
44fordy said:
Interesting. You're thinking the bears are having an affect. (And not that I'm disagreeing completely)

I'd find it easier to believe that wolves/coyotes are more detrimental to young moose than bears. Especially in the winter months where food is more scarce, but bears are sleeping for the most part.

I've personally witnessed NO decline in moose populations from everything I've witnessed in the past decade.

I think the biggest detriment to the hunt is socialist governments. I've requested info on how the studies are done from the MNR. After reading their tripe, I don't even know why they bother. That's a complete waste of time. They survey less than half of huntable WMU's, and basically do a fly-by with some clown trying to count them.

Based on the budget they have for this research, they can't be in the air more than a few hours.
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I agree that wolves are harder on the moose than bears! Just saying that a bear hunt is another option in the fall, and one bear in my freezer is one less bear to harass the moose calves in spring.
 
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