Awww, c'mon - you trying to tell me that when people of that group go into taverns and offer moose hinds for $50, it's not subsistence or traditional hunting?
ONTARIO MOOSE HUNTERS! Any support for a boycott?
- Thread starter 9.3mauser
- Start date
Awww, c'mon - you trying to tell me that when people of that group go into taverns and offer moose hinds for $50, it's not subsistence or traditional hunting?
madtrapper143
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Steep Rock Lake NWO
Bottom line is that moose numbers are low in most WMU's. The bitter pill is reduced tags and hunting opportunities in an attempt to bolster their numbers. The poison pill is that some major factors impacting the moose numbers are being ignored due to political correctness. Insult to injury is the MNR now asking for our input on proposed regulatory changes that have already been decided upon. We lobbied for years to be able to offer input over various MNR regulatory change and we were given that ability through EBR submissions. I guess we forgot to ask that some of the submissions actually be considered and implemented......
Darryl
Darryl
Overall there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of support for a boycott... I asked a similar question over on the OOD site and got similar responses. If only a handful of hunters boycott it won't have the desired effect. So now I guess it comes down to a personal decision on whether you want to continue to donate $60 to the provincial government every spring.
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I don't agree with this . Over 100,000 purchased tags and applied in the lottery last year . How many actually went moose hunting , I have no idea so i'll just throw out a number . Let's say , half or 50,000 . I live in the heart of moose country , Thunder Bay so I have no expenses like the guys from the south coming north and I easily spend $1,000.00 every season for guns , ammo , food , fuel , tags and toilet paper . Let's say the total all in cost for every hunter no matter where he comes from is $1,000.00 . We're now at $500 million added to the economy of Ontario and that's big bucks . Is it that much , I don't know but in any case it's a terrific amount of money . Of course a boycott won't work because we have the stakeholders like the OFAH who'll support any restriction on anything like they supported the ban on game farming , the cancellation of the spring bear hunt and the necessity for hunters to buy wolf tags with the limit of two per calander year .
I hunt/shoot 12 months per year and have been doing so for over 60 years . It started to change about 15 years ago . Prior to that it was fairly easy to find and harvest a calf . Not so anymore . I can find , no exaggeration , 50 piles of bear scat per day from the 2nd week in May until mid-July and it's close to impossible to find piles of bear scat without moose hair in it . I had a local MNR biologist tell me that 70% of moose calves don't survive the first year and 60% of those are being killed by bears . I've watched bears killing moose calves . As the population of bears increased after the cancellation of the spring bear hunt the graph is almost inversely proportional to the decrease in moose . Our remaining moose population is old and the younger cows drop calves only to have bears kill them . The MNR has not addressed this and won't because they'll never admit they were wrong when they caved to political pressure .
There is another big one , and it's big . Brain worm introduced by white tail deer . Up to about 15 years ago you had to be very , very lucky to get a deer around here . Now they are everywhere and expanding their range farther north and west every year . Last year the Minnesota DNR did an actual areal survery of their moose population . The Minnesota border is 40 miles from me . The survey was done in the last two weeks of Janurary and the first two weeks of February . They found 81 dead moose and the autopsys showed all dead from brain worm and the DNR actually shot 3 more that were staggering who were infected with brain worm also . Closer to home moose have been found in the Sibley Penninsula (Sleeping Giant) with brain worm as well as moose from Black Sturgeon .
Ticks . In the DNR survey all the dead moose were infected with from 30,000 to 200,000 ticks per moose , in the dead of winter and parasites will kill the host . The whole survey is online but you'll have to find and read it . It's ghastly . Maybe 2014 Minnesota moose survey , brain worm or some search like that .
Finally . I personally know almost everyone on the Fort William First Nations rez as well as the Gull Bay rez 100 miles north and they are not out slaughtering moose . One party may take 5 moose and share with the rez while the other 100 families don't even hunt .
Bears , brain worm and ticks and the MNR addresses none of it . In addition , studies in northern Manitoba and Saskatchewan show that a pack of 9 to 12 wolves will killed one moose every 6 to 7 days and according to the local biologist there are up to , estimated , 8,000 timber wolves in northern and north western Ontario . Do the math and they are now protected with a tag system . The MNR again protecting Walt Disney .
The human harvest is statistically insignificant compared to what's really going on out there and everything , including the MNR is working against the moose population . I know the two biologists from the University Of Michigan who have been conducting the moose survey on Isle Royale , just south of me . They've been on it for the last 15 years but the actual survey has been on going for 40 years . It's over . The wolves have finally killed off the last of the moose . Google it , it's all there . How about the most southernly herd of woodland caribou on planet Earth . The Slate Islands , just off Rossport . The small herd has been on the islands since the galciers retreat 7,000 years ago . Don't bother booking a vacation to go see them . About 10 years ago the wolves started crossing the frozen ice for miles out and in one winter they killed every caribou that had been there since the ice age . The MNR knew all about it and a political decision was made in Toronto to not intervene and 7,000 years of history was wiped out . One fvcking shooter in a helicopter could have saved the caribou and we'd have them for another 7,000 years .
This is more true in some WMU's than others.
The MNR published a resource report for the WMU I hunt in, WMU 25.
It's uber-remote with practically no road access - plane or train is the primary way to access the WMU.
In most years 150'ish adult tags are available (has been about that going back into the 1980's).
Harvest data from 1980-2012 show the average number of moose taken per year between both resident hunters and outfitters is 43 moose of which in any given year 3 are calves.
So at least in WMU 25 this "change" will protect three (3) calves (statistically).
If the MNR was actually "managing" things based on the data, I find it hard to believe that changing/restricting a season to protect/save 3 calves, in an area where only about 1/3 of tags get filled anyhow, is justified.
And that is more the issue I have with a "blanket approach" which is always what is applied.
You make some excellent points, and I hope you are right. However, 2 things to consider in the financial impact - bureaucrats and governments don't have the vision to see all the side benefits of the hunt. They only seem to care about the direct dollars going in to the coffers. Also, the vast majority of those 100,000 hunters will not stop hunting altogether if they do not buy a moose tag. They will switch to bear hunting (which is highly advisable), or deer hunting (although the tag situation has deteriorated lately as well, but deer numbers are very low right now. Hopefully, this winter, which is not as bad as the past few, to date, will give them a bit of a break), so the financial impact will be less than $500 M.
Regarding wolf predation, the vast majority of people (biologists included) seem to suffer from Disneyitis, where everything in nature is a big, well-balanced "Circle of Life", with each animal only killing what it needs to survive, and natives are the guardians of Nature. They don't see the entire herds of moose killed by wolves when we get a hard crust on the deep snow, or the moose carcasses with only the hinds removed, for sale in local taverns.
I'm not participating anymore. I'll take my money elsewhere even out of the country, my time is too scarce to me to waste with the games. It's no wonder people say screw it and poach. We see more moose than ever before and no tags.
eta:
I agree with the above post
The tags granted are of little impact. The areas with wolves out of control, and bears as well are seeing a hit. Not to mention the elephant in the room that has been mentioned....
eta:
I agree with the above post
The tags granted are of little impact. The areas with wolves out of control, and bears as well are seeing a hit. Not to mention the elephant in the room that has been mentioned....
Game biologists were not always like this. In the 1950s and sixties, in BC at least, their aim was to manage game to maintain the species at good levels.
Most people today will not even have heard of the great wolf kill in BC in the 1950s. Wolves had increased to great numbers and wild game in general was taking a beating, with some bands of caribou and some areas of mountain goats in particular, likely due for extinction. The ranchers were suffering great losses to their cattle and it was the fuss made by the ranchers that was the final straw that caused the BC government to begin the largest wolf killing program in the history of Canada.
Over a nearly ten year period of time, starting about 1951, hundreds of tons of frozen horse meat, laced with poison for wolves, was dropped from aircraft onto frozen lakes over much of central and northern BC.
OK, I'll straighten out the horse meat angle, before someone asks. Until about that time the farmers of the west used horses for farming, but at that period of time, horses were giving way to tractors on farms. Thus, there were thousands of old, worn out work horses being retired. The government approved a plan whereby they authorized a payment of $25 per horse, to be used for wolf bait, could be paid to the farmers. The odd confiscated moose was also used for bait, but moose amounted to a very small percentage of the bait used.
Anyway, the person in charge of the provincial wolf killing program was a fully licenced game biologist. I will even state his name, it was Al West, from Vancouver. He enlisted knowledgeable men, sometimes the game wardens, gave them the title of predatory control officers and had them placed in about fifty areas, over central and northern BC, to coordinate the wolf poisoning program in their areas.
In spite of all the poison dropped over such an extended period of time, there was still a healthy population of wolves remaining in the province when it was all over.
But the game animals made a tremendous come back. Soon caribou were being legally hunted in areas where they hung on the lip of extinction, prior to the wolf kill.
Very little was officially written of the history of this poison campaign. Thus, anything you may find on Google was written some time after the program was over and was written from hear say, usually to fall in line with the writers views of it, rather than the truth of the matter.
Bruce
This gave me a laugh.
Not picking at what you are saying but heard very similar words from my Dad who gave up moose hunting when they instituted the pool system.
I am not willing to give up a couple more decades of moose hunting (if I live that long) simply because a bunch of moron's make it a little more difficult and expensive to do so.
I may not go every year to hunt the "late calf" if I/we don't have an adult tag, but I'm not going to let the "anti's" win by proxy. If we all quit hunting it would only be us hunters that suffer - many others would cheer, drink latte's around the campfire while singing folk songs.
But that might put PETA out of business...
I'm not quitting hunting, nor moose hunting. I'm not going to go camping for week of beer drinking in Ontario when I can take that week and hunt moose in Alberta or BC or Buffalo in Africa.
I like beer and I like camping but I don't need to buy a calf tag from Cathleen to do either.
I like beer and I like camping but I don't need to buy a calf tag from Cathleen to do either.
Very well written. You make excellent points from knowledge of self education and experience. I think you have actually hit the nail on the head with your diagnosis of the moose issues. I am 4.5 hrs. west of you in the Dryden area. I can sit here in my living room and see bear's everyday of the week from spring to fall. I have seven timber wolves in the area of the house here that I have seen, there is probably more. We can not let our dogs out unescorted. I have a quarter section next to thousands of acres of crown, there is absolutely no sign of moose what so ever. During my travels last summer fishing in different lakes in the area I only seen two fresh moose tracks. You have to go at least an hour north on me to pick up any consistent sign of moose. The locals here have been telling the MNR for at least 10 yrs. that the moose are in decline. They would not listen. They had the attitude that the locals don't know anything.
As citizens and hunters of this province we have to do something to get the MNR to listen to us tax payers. I am not totally convinced a boycott is the answer. The MNR does need a major head slap from us to get there attention. There politically correct attitude in governance has harmed the natural resources of this province to a critical level the moose being a prime example. Letter writing especially to your MPP is effective especially when done by the individual. Organizations such as the OAHA can also bring there influence to constantly place pressure on the government. It is consistent, constant pressure on government that eventually get results, especially when it is presented from a vote perspective. If an MPP is told consistently by many folks in his riding that your not voting for him over the MNR moose issue, it is a great incentive for him to take action. Years ago they made a grave error in cancelling the spring bear hunt by listening to the anti crowd. They have to be reminded of this and beaten up with this info as a prime example of there incompetence and the consequences that result to the natural resources of the is province when they make dumb politically correct decisions.
One thing for sure moose hunting is changing, and is going to change drastically further for at least several decades until we can get this issue under control.
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I am ambivalent about how much wolves negatively impact moose population - one of the main purposes of the Isle Royale study was to try to figure that out - and not sure they have anything but data after 57 years ... it is notable that a couple of times the wolves almost died off...and I cant seem to find out what the real status of either species is right now. The early data was that both moose and wolf managed to create a healthy balance - however the impact of decades of genetic inbreeding was having some effect as well - on both species
I "think" black bears have had an impact on moose (and probably deer) .... but I think equally as important is the effect of brain worm on the moose herd as white tail manage to expand their range. I am inclined to believe that wolves have a bigger impact on deer population than they do on moose though. Certainly moose have a slightly better chance of handling deep and/or crusty snow than a whitetail and I have seen two deer yards hit hard by wolves.
Anyway it could be that wolves will bring deer under control enough to reduce the moose die off due to brain worm..?
I guess we all want the same thing: a healthy abundant herd that will support a recreational and subsistence hunting harvest
I "think" black bears have had an impact on moose (and probably deer) .... but I think equally as important is the effect of brain worm on the moose herd as white tail manage to expand their range. I am inclined to believe that wolves have a bigger impact on deer population than they do on moose though. Certainly moose have a slightly better chance of handling deep and/or crusty snow than a whitetail and I have seen two deer yards hit hard by wolves.
Anyway it could be that wolves will bring deer under control enough to reduce the moose die off due to brain worm..?
I guess we all want the same thing: a healthy abundant herd that will support a recreational and subsistence hunting harvest
Chuckbuster
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I haven't bought a moose licence for a number of years now specifically because of the draw stupidity. After never getting an adult tag as an individual or a group for something like 20 years, I had enough.
Chuckbuster
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
"The human harvest is statistically insignificant compared to what's really going on out there and everything , including the MNR is working against the moose population . I know the two biologists from the University Of Michigan who have been conducting the moose survey on Isle Royale , just south of me . They've been on it for the last 15 years but the actual survey has been on going for 40 years . It's over . The wolves have finally killed off the last of the moose . Google it , it's all there . How about the most southernly herd of woodland caribou on planet Earth . The Slate Islands , just off Rossport . The small herd has been on the islands since the galciers retreat 7,000 years ago . Don't bother booking a vacation to go see them . About 10 years ago the wolves started crossing the frozen ice for miles out and in one winter they killed every caribou that had been there since the ice age . The MNR knew all about it and a political decision was made in Toronto to not intervene and 7,000 years of history was wiped out . One fvcking shooter in a helicopter could have saved the caribou and we'd have them for another 7,000 years ."
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I'm always a little skeptical about claims of natural predators wiping out their prey sources. And so, I had a look.
Not to take away from the effects of a declining moose population, but, according to Michigan Tech, as of last winter, the wolves on Isle Royale were in serious trouble (down to something like 15 individuals) while the moose population stands at over a thousand animals. Also, the Slate Island caribou, while not as numerous as they once were, number a few hundred animals from what I have been able to gather, and are rebounding from a population crash: the result of literally eating themselves out of house and island home a number of years ago.
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I'm always a little skeptical about claims of natural predators wiping out their prey sources. And so, I had a look.
Not to take away from the effects of a declining moose population, but, according to Michigan Tech, as of last winter, the wolves on Isle Royale were in serious trouble (down to something like 15 individuals) while the moose population stands at over a thousand animals. Also, the Slate Island caribou, while not as numerous as they once were, number a few hundred animals from what I have been able to gather, and are rebounding from a population crash: the result of literally eating themselves out of house and island home a number of years ago.
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me too Chuckbuster ... and that squares with what I have read as well ... the moose/wolf population has been bouncing back and forth a very long time on Isle Royale with nothing definitive except that the lack of an ice bridge has isolated the gene pool of both wolf and moose to their common disadvantage.
It is also interesting that (like the Slate Island Caribou) at one point the moose on Isle Royale may have eaten themselves "off the island" and into extinction if wolves hadnt interfered with that plan ... so I think natural predation has its place ... I am not so comfortable with the spread of parasites that kill one species of host and not another,,,,
Want to add ... I admire moose and I hope they stick around for a long time in Ontario. Because if they do that will mean that we will have retained our mixed bush - and beaver will still be damming up creeks creating places for moose to pull up aquatic plants and trout have a place to find cool water in the summer and ducks find a place to rest, fisher, muskrat and otter can hunt etc etc. and bear will hang around watching for a meal.
Anyway .. maybe a moratorium on moose hunting is a good thing. Not to punish anyone economically - but - to help ourselves and kids to continue enjoying what we have before it is gone for good. And maybe we hunters should declare it first before it is imposed. A 5-7 year closed season should see the herd come back (at least a little) - if everyone who has enjoyed hunting kicked in $50/year some of it could go to help out the subsistence hunters and the balance could be invested in some way to help build the herd. No reason why guys couldnt still go to their favorite sites every year -- crack open the cards (and the beer/wine/whisky) cook their own meals, sleep in a tent and do a little target practice .. BUT NO HUNTING ... scouting and recording data would be encouraged ... and the occasional wack at a grouse could be fun. It would be a excellent way to show other Canadians that dont hunt - that we hunters are serious about game management .
I dont know -- but I think we need to do something sooner rather than later - and I personally would rather be helping to make some decisions rather than being told what to do again by our government.
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It can't be a one-pronged campaign - the bear herd has to be trimmed down almost everywhere, wolves should be thinned where there are too many, Natives should be negotiated into agreeing to reduce their harvest and keep it to traditional sustenance hunting (and fishing) only, deer should be thinned in moose areas, then, and only then, do we also curb sport hunting. Of all the issues raised, sport hunting is probably the least detrimental, and sport hunters are the ones who will likely willingly cooperate if their sacrifice is going to be meaningful.
You are correct but the way it is today .. John and Jane "Q" Public will always be convinced that any reduction in game animals is due to nasty hunters. Part of our strategy should be to invest in ways of convincing them that is NOT the case - MNR will NEVER do it because there are more non-hunter voters than hunter voters - so the politico's keep the message toned down despite the fact that most MNR (Ontario) I'm sure know the economics ..but there is no point arguing that point with Brittany from Rosedale in Toronto - it would be political suicide the way it stands today. Unfortunately it will take a big campaign to demonstrate that a) we want to preserve game more than anyone b) we are putting our money where our mouths is/are and c) at the end of this we should/will have strong evidence that we hunters are the solution to the problem - not the problem ...
As I see it -- this is a downward spiral until somebody shuts us down permanently anyway.... or we figure out how to be the masters of our own destiny...
