We all sit here and type away about how bad the MNR has screwed up hunting in Ontario with a great level of incompetence, and we expect them to change based on our wishes but in reality I doubt you will see any change that doesn't involve cutting back on licensed hunters opportunities. It is the only way they know how to deal with declining game populations, they can't admit that the bear population as well as wolves has increased greatly since they made changes in regards to hunting those two animals, they can't even listen to their own biologists telling them that bear predation on moose calves is too high to sustain population levels, so why would we expect them to change with our list of concerns? If someone can come up with a better idea than a boycott on buying moose tags this year I'm all ears, otherwise we can keep beating the dead horse that isn't going to change or listen. Nothing will change around here until the MNR realizes they have helped create the problem and work towards fixing past mistakes.
ONTARIO MOOSE HUNTERS! Any support for a boycott?
- Thread starter 9.3mauser
- Start date
This thread is full of really great information and perspectives. My take away is, I need to get out and start hunting bears/wolves and that moose hunting as we have known it will be changing for some time. An interesting bit of information comes to mind as I read this as well. I good friend of mine has told me of a time about 50'ish years ago around the River Valley / Gull Lake area when people guided for deer hunting where now (at least 5-10 years ago) you could barely find a deer there and moose hunting is prevalent. Makes me think nature has natural cycles that are resistant to our attempts to alter them.
My own strategy for the up coming years is my money will not be participating in any more moose lotteries. I have had many decades of moose hunting. Time to make a little room for others to have what little fun there is left.
Since there is an over abundance of bear, wolves, and the deer are still plentiful but are also on the decline in my area, I will concentrate my efforts on what we have most of. The MNR budget has seen drastic cuts over the years which certainly doesn't help the moose issue. But money is not needed to make good sound planning and decision's just brains.
I am not old by to-days standards but I have been around long enough to experience that when you bought a moose licence in Ontario you automatically got a bear licence to go with it as bear were considered a pest. I don't recall a licence was needed for wolves, you just shot them on sight. As for moose the licence you bought it allowed you to shoot any moose you wanted, in the areas we hunted the numbers appeared stable. Then out of the blue some all stars at the Lands and Forests/MNR about 30 + yrs. ago got the bright idea they could double the Ontario moose population in ten years by introducing a lottery system. The back bone of the lottery was that all moose licences were valid for calves as they had a 90% + mortality rate in there first year anyways. Now I never claimed to be a rocket scientist but it goes against common sense and conventional logic as to how any species could steadily increase by having the vast majority of there young killed off.!! But the wise folks at the MNR claimed most moose calves died anyways and if we shot even more of them then that was okay as long we didn't shoot as many adults the moose population would sky rocket in ten years and then the lottery would be removed and moose would be aplenty for hunting and picture taking. H'mmmm well we all know how that plan turned out. The genius's that came up with the lottery plan are retired on government indexed pensions, and Ontario has a struggling moose population that is most likely in worse shape than when the lottery system started.
Well maybe a helpful solution would be to implement a 10 yr. ban on all moose hunting in Ontario, to include Metis and natives of course as everyone has to do there part. Then to save money and give accountability to government we can fire all the folks at the MNR who are responsible for moose management, lottery operation, etc. etc. as there services will no longer be required.
Since there is an over abundance of bear, wolves, and the deer are still plentiful but are also on the decline in my area, I will concentrate my efforts on what we have most of. The MNR budget has seen drastic cuts over the years which certainly doesn't help the moose issue. But money is not needed to make good sound planning and decision's just brains.
I am not old by to-days standards but I have been around long enough to experience that when you bought a moose licence in Ontario you automatically got a bear licence to go with it as bear were considered a pest. I don't recall a licence was needed for wolves, you just shot them on sight. As for moose the licence you bought it allowed you to shoot any moose you wanted, in the areas we hunted the numbers appeared stable. Then out of the blue some all stars at the Lands and Forests/MNR about 30 + yrs. ago got the bright idea they could double the Ontario moose population in ten years by introducing a lottery system. The back bone of the lottery was that all moose licences were valid for calves as they had a 90% + mortality rate in there first year anyways. Now I never claimed to be a rocket scientist but it goes against common sense and conventional logic as to how any species could steadily increase by having the vast majority of there young killed off.!! But the wise folks at the MNR claimed most moose calves died anyways and if we shot even more of them then that was okay as long we didn't shoot as many adults the moose population would sky rocket in ten years and then the lottery would be removed and moose would be aplenty for hunting and picture taking. H'mmmm well we all know how that plan turned out. The genius's that came up with the lottery plan are retired on government indexed pensions, and Ontario has a struggling moose population that is most likely in worse shape than when the lottery system started.
Well maybe a helpful solution would be to implement a 10 yr. ban on all moose hunting in Ontario, to include Metis and natives of course as everyone has to do there part. Then to save money and give accountability to government we can fire all the folks at the MNR who are responsible for moose management, lottery operation, etc. etc. as there services will no longer be required.
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Hopefully you are not all just typing this stuff on CGN, you need to write your thoughts to MNR through the EBR posting.
I have had to work on EBR responses and I can tell you the more often they hear the same key words over and over again they are forced to acknowledge them in a briefing note to the Minister. You all seem to have alot to say, why not tell it to MNR.
I have had to work on EBR responses and I can tell you the more often they hear the same key words over and over again they are forced to acknowledge them in a briefing note to the Minister. You all seem to have alot to say, why not tell it to MNR.
this is just the first step in the divide and conquer strategy at work. this yr. alienate the largest group of moose hunters, those that hunt the first 2 weeks, wait for their complaints that it 'simply isn't fair or right'
for some hunters to get an opportunity to shoot calves.....the MNR responds with, you are right.....now nobody gets to shoot calves for 2016.
for some hunters to get an opportunity to shoot calves.....the MNR responds with, you are right.....now nobody gets to shoot calves for 2016.
Could be but maybe that's part of the shorter term answer; as MrGoat points out above: "The back bone of the lottery was that all moose licences were valid for calves as they had a 90% + mortality rate in there first year anyways. Now I never claimed to be a rocket scientist but it goes against common sense and conventional logic as to how any species could steadily increase by having the vast majority of there young killed off.!!"
.. in any event to all get behind a proper strategy we need good reliable data to understand what negatively impacts the herd - what helps and what is really sustainable and what we should be doing to improve the odds. Is the herd up in area x, down in y, overall down/up etc etc and why .. too much pressure from First Nations?; to much pressure from others?; too much pressure from bear; wolves; snow; shooting calves; parasites????? And it is apparent (IMO) if we dont do something sooner - it may be too late.
The AIM of the Ontario liberals is to get rid of the moose hunt. (I will agree, they still want you to buy a license however)
I've had mass correspondence with the MNR and get the same BS replies. Their "studies" are a complete FARCE. To make a long story short, they basically fly around a couple WMU's, make up some fictitious numbers and claw back the season/tags.
It's almost common knowledge they're trying to get rid of it.
I'm sick of these a$$holes.
Chuckbuster
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yes. The implementation of the selective harvest program as MNR calls it, was based on the perceived mortality rate of calves: if X amount die anyway, the exact cause doesn't matter. However, as the Isle Royale study and what is happening here show, is that there are many many factors involved in determining how a moose population grows or declines. Reliance on or blaming any one factor is probably not a wise thing to do. The reality is, the management approach that was taken has not worked at all. I remember being a student in high school and reading about how good a job the selective harvest system was going to do in terms of growing the moose herd province wide. 2000 was to be a benchmark year, and I remember well my utter disappointment that actual numbers did not match predictions. At any rate, there is a problem with moose management and correction is going to take a long term integrated approach that factors in many causative agents for growth and decline. What MNR does, however, is anybody's guess.
You know, all this great info and ideas is facing one brick wall: the MNR. However, there is nothing to stop the OFAH from starting its own campaign: what would stop them from asking their members to: a) boycott the moose hunt, b) take up bear hunting instead, c) cull wolf numbers where they are a problem and it is legal to do so, d) hunt deer where there are too many and they are a threat to moose, and e) start negotiations with native bands to try to get them on board with voluntarily controlling their harvest - after all, as the friends and caretakers of nature, they should enthusiastically embrace this.
These things could all be done by the OFAH, and would be well within their mandate. If the MNR saw this picking up steam, they would jump on board darned quickly. As one of those who came out of the gun control battle seriously bruised by the OFAH's position on Milsurp, and having sworn to never give them another dime of my money, if I saw them take on this battle, I would be willing to eat crow and take up a membership again.
These things could all be done by the OFAH, and would be well within their mandate. If the MNR saw this picking up steam, they would jump on board darned quickly. As one of those who came out of the gun control battle seriously bruised by the OFAH's position on Milsurp, and having sworn to never give them another dime of my money, if I saw them take on this battle, I would be willing to eat crow and take up a membership again.
My Granddad raised his kids on caribou meat in Nova Scotia, the moose supplanted them, and now the deer are doing the same. The major change is habitat, NS used to be full of barrens that are now grown over with spruce, changing the nature of the food sources. Over hunting certainly hurt but without food there is no comeback.
Willy Tincup
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Owen Sound
I wouldn't say our small group [4] boycotted last years hunt but after 14 years of applying and not 1 adult tag to show for it we opted not to buy moose licenses and instead filled one of the buckets on the list. We went to Pelee Island for a pheasant hunt. Had a great time. Its a whole different world on that little Island; like a throw back in time. Hope to go back again.
Not sure what the real agenda is (like I said -- I would like some real data first before making assumptions) BUT I dont think for a moment that the Liberals are not vindictive bastards and will do whatever they can to "punish" firearms owners for siding with the conservatives. The fact that Wynne resorted to threats of lawsuits to shut up opposition accusations of wrongdoing over the Gas Plant $$ PAYOUT$$$ is an example of that strategy. Although she promised an inquiry if she won .. once she had a majority the inquiry was dumped and people that complained were threatened with lawsuits -- of course when you are the Premier of Ontario and your government makes some (not all to be sure) court appointments AND you have the deep pockets of a party enriched by patronage (ORANGE, Gas Plant, EHealth, etc) you can make blow hard threats like that ... you know the small MPP's in opposition dont have a pot to piss in .. and will back down quickly!! ... there is something pretty evil going on at Queens Park that's for sure - and until we move the Liberals out - it will continue.
Want to add that some folks may be forgetting that a very popular theme amongst the anti-gun lobby in their efforts to restrict so-called "Black Guns" was the frequent claim that they were no good for hunting and therefore they should be confiscated/banned/highly restricted because you dont "need" them! How many folks wonder what will happen in Ontario if hunting undergoes a permanent ban because "hunters" are blamed for having driven game (like moose) to the "edge of extinction"? The argument would be - why would you need a gun? There's no more hunting? Target shooting? how will you do that when the ranges get restricted/shut down by the Province ? etc etc .... I realize that this is alarmist and extreme but nothing a Liberal government is not entirely capable of.
There's no way I'm putting in $55 towards an adult tag I'll never get, and only get a 2 week calf season. For me, I'll be taking my moose hunting back to Alberta where I can hook up with my hunter host and chase bulls with the bow.
I agree 100%
Biggunners
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- MOSTLY LOSTED
Tag - good read
Even IF we could get every hunter in Ontario on board to boycott, I don't think the province will care. Sure, they'll lose money but you know how they operate. They'll just make up some other "tax" or "user fee" to counterbalance it all. Or they'll stick it to us in the other hunts. Deer/turkey/small game/fishing - all costs will spike. (More than usual)
The liberals have a strangle hold on the province and hunting, and we're pretty much rookered. And no offence to OFAH, but they just are powerful enough in their deliveries.
I'm trying to file for Native status so I can do as I please... I'm just stuck where it asks for "Band"?? Should I put AC/DC or Led Zeppelin??
The liberals have a strangle hold on the province and hunting, and we're pretty much rookered. And no offence to OFAH, but they just are powerful enough in their deliveries.
I'm trying to file for Native status so I can do as I please... I'm just stuck where it asks for "Band"?? Should I put AC/DC or Led Zeppelin??
