Open sights or not on Sako???

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Tiger99

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Hi folks, this is my first post. I have been reading and lurking for quite awhile. I believe there a a lot of very experienced individuals here that know far more than I, and I certainly would be very appreciative of any useful advice or suggestions. Thank you in advance for any guidance you may choose to offer. I have recently acquired a Dillon XL650 and have begun learning to reload and intend to reload my rifle ammo.

Here is my question. I have been looking for larger caliber rifle capable of hunting big game in Alberta and seem to have settled one of the variations of the Sako 85 series in a .308, but I am also considering a 30-06, but have learned of ejection problems with many of the Sako 85 in long action so I am leery of the 30-06.

I am considering a Sako 85 Hunter, Sako 85 Black Bear or Sako 85 Bavarian or Sako 85 Finnlight. Can't decide on stainless steel or blued or Wood or composite stock. There are pros and cons of both, so one more think to ponder.

I want to use the rifle at the range from time to time. I figure no use getting a good rifle if you don't spend time getting comfortable shooting it. I want to have a rifle suitable to keep handy as a camping gun to deter bears and cougars, etc., while camping and I want open sights for this use and I don't think a scope would be an asset in this situation due to only needing to make very short range shots. I would also like the rifle to be suitable for big game hunting in Alberta. My longest shot would probably be 150 - 250 yards at the very most while hunting.

I have been looking at variable power maybe 3 - 9 or 2.5 - 10 or higher power optics. I believe I should have a fairly low power at the low end. Suggestions for a scope appreciated.

My problem as I see it, is that most rifles in this category, including the Sakos do not come with open sights. I want to be able to use it as a possible camp gun where I would only be using it at a very short range, perhaps in very low light and thought that open sights would be better and a scope may well be a hindrance in this situation. Also, at the range I like to shoot open sights as well as with a scope.

So guys, there is a lot I don't know, and although I grew up in the country on a farm and have shot from time to time all my life, I am wondering if you all might have some suggestions regarding whether I should abandon my "open sights" requirement or "stick to my guns", if you will, and hold out for a rifle with open sights.

There are some Sakos that come with open sights such as the Black Bear and other Sakos that can be ordered with open sights, such as the Bavarian and the Hunter. I have found a few gun shops in Alberta that have in stock Sakos with open sights, but not many and none so far in .308.

Lastly, I have became aware of a serious problem with ejection of the spent cartridges not ejecting properly and bouncing off the scope barrel in the long action Sakos (30-06 included) and sometimes landing back in the receiver and causing a jam in various 85 models. Many posts indicate, Berretta and Stoeger are very unhelpful for the most part, and or course, the retailer can not afford to take back a gun that the distributor or manufacturer will not take back. Berretta apparently suggests "moving your scope back and forth" or "rotating your scope counterclockwise 90 degrees" so the turret doesn't get hit as their idea of a fix. That would not be acceptable for me in a $2,000 plus rifle.

It seems from what I have read, for the most part, unless you are a very "squeaky wheel" they do not consider it a warranty issue and indeed many posts indicate that they will often not even acknowledge the "problem". Midway carries a third party stronger ejection spring that some say helps the "ejection problem". Further many Sako 85 series rifles have no problem at all and no one seems to be able to figure why some have serious ejection problems and others do not. So it seems if you buy one and if you get a lemon you are likely stuck with it.

So, back to my topic, before I rambled, is it better to have a rifle with open sights or not?

I have read extensively and tried to decide and I remain still wanting open sights. Is there any down side to open sights? Any comments or suggestions regarding open sights or the Sako 85 ejection problem will be very much appreciated. Now that I have written this I think I should have made it into two post. Next time guys. Thank you for any ideas and for reading my post.

Also, if anyone has a used rifle for sale and they are in the Edmonton, Red Deer or Calgary area, please feel free to message me as I am looking for a rifle, preferably a Sako.
 
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I shopped for a Sako, and came home with a Tikka... Three Tikkas, actually. Almost the same price!

Whenever someone asks me what fishing rod to get, I tell them to get something cheap, because in a year you're not going to like your first fishing rod no matter how much you spent. You won't know what you want until you know the sport.

I've dealt with stoeger before. Based on that, I feel that I'm on my own if there are problems with my tikkas.
 
Sounds to me like you need a couple shooters.
One scoped and the other for camp use.
A pump with a mag tube extension and your choice of
ammo.
 
A low power variable would work for close range use with the capability to turn up the magnification for longer shots: something like 1-4x, 1.5-5x, 1.5-6x, or thereabouts.
 
Open sights are only good if you are not going to use a scope at all. I can hit a target at 10 feet with a 3x scope, so it's not something I worry about in most rifles. Just keep both eyes open
 
Should you be willing to consider other brands, an alternate option may be to acquire two different rifles for your purposes ......

For example, a CZ 550 rifle could be found in both configurations i.e. Bavarian stock with iron sights as well as American stock with a clean barrel. You may wish to explore the variety of CZ centerfire products that could easily meet your specified requirements. The model 550 is equipped with a long action receiver though regardless of calibre.

The newer (2014) model 557 Carbine is offered in both long and short actions but do lack certain features visible on the former model. Admittedly, I haven't seen one so far in Ontario gun shops.

Moreover, not each and every model of CZ 550 series may be available here in Canada. However, the two versions mentioned above are easily found here. The overall cost of two such rifles will overlap the cost of a single Sako 85 (versions mentioned in your post) by a small margin only. CZ offers excellent quality products.
 
I've got a scoped 6.5x55 with no sights for the hunt, and a 30-06 with sights and a low power scope on quick detach mounts for everything else.

I *bring* both hunting so any of a dozen odd things happening (Rico forgetting his ammo last fall, for instance) doesn't ruin anybody's trip. There is a spare huntable gun around.

I retired my 270 in favor of the 6.5, and retired my 1895 in favor of the 30-06. I've got to get those up on the EE... along with my 1894, my 336, my other shotgun, my BAR, my BLR takedown, my Hog Hunter...

Or I need a bigger safe.
 
2015-04-17%2009.34.50_zpsae2brtdb.jpg


Tikka T3 Lite Stainless in 6.5x55 with a Leupold VX3 2.5-8x36 scope in Talley lightweight extra low rings

Tikka T3 Lite Battue in 30-06 with a Leupold VX3 1.75-6x32 Scope in Warne Medium Height Grooved Receiver Line Tikka QD rings
 
Tiger99 said:
Lastly, I have became aware of a serious problem with ejection of the spent cartridges not ejecting properly and bouncing off the scope barrel in the long action Sakos (30-06 included) and sometimes landing back in the receiver and causing a jam in various 85 models.
Click to expand...

This happens most often on guns with low rings and 30 mm tubes.
 
I like having iron sights on my rifles, even though I seldom use them. You can add good aftermarket sights to any rifle. i have installed the excellent NECG front sights ( made by Recknagel in Germany) on a couple rifles, there are no better sights on the market. it will cost you about $250 - $300 or so to add irons including some gunsmith fees.
 
What looky said, you need a few guns. For sako money you could have a high quality scoped gun like a cz or a weatherby, and a lever of your choice (for irons). Or get a used 336 with enough left over for a moss 500, sks and rounds etc. You could have a very versatile gun collection on that budget.

I have to admit though, i am pretty biased. I just don't get why sakos are so effing expensive compared to other similar quality bolt guns. It's a factory rifle for custom gun money.
 
Get the Sako 85 FS Bavarian Carbine... beautiful rifle... and comes from the factory with good iron sights... use Sako QD mounts and a low power range scope, like a Leupold VX-3 1.75-6X32mm... you will have the best of both worlds.
 
Tiger99 said:
I want to have a rifle suitable to keep handy as a camping gun to deter bears and cougars, etc., while camping and I want open sights for this use and I don't think a scope would be an asset in this situation due to only needing to make very short range shots. I would also like the rifle to be suitable for big game hunting in Alberta. My longest shot would probably be 150 - 250 yards at the very most while hunting.
Click to expand...
I'd go with a smaller scope similar to a VX3 1.5x6 or 2.5x8. It's low enough on the low end for you need while 6x is lots for shooting out to you distances mentioned. It's a very good flexible scope.

As for sights .... I would forget that option. It's not like you're going to be popping off the scope when you come into camp in preparation for bears and/or cougars. You'll leave the scope on, sighted in and deal with any problems as the arise on the low power scope setting.
 
As Sir FuddlyCub mentioned, don't forget to turn the scope power to the lowest setting
when you git yer arse back to camp.
Actually, it's always bestest to start out on the lowest.
Nothing worser than on nine or so and have fur jump up t'ween yer legs.
 
I'm a pants-and-suspenders kind of guy, so for me a serious hunting rifle simply must have iron sights. My scope will be mounted in some sort of QD rings, and usually there will be a second scope/rings assembly pre-sighted-in and ready to go as a back-up.

With a Sako (yes, I suppose the 85 might be considered a Sako, even though it isn't an A-series gun...:)), you have the wonderful option of the Sako rear aperture sight. You can mount your scope in QD rings, and if needed just pop it off the gun and quickly affix the aperture sight. If you really want to piss off the know-it-alls in your hunt camp, you can remove the rear open sight, leaving only the front sight to use in conjunction with the QD aperture. As soon as some a$$hat points out how silly it is to have only a front sight, you can show him how quick and slick the set-up really is. They usually shut up almost immediately...that alone makes it worthwhile! :)
 
Quality iron sights on a rifle are beneficial, in that they increase the versatility and redundancy of the rifle. Poor iron sights are curse. Here are some questions that you might consider. Do my iron sights cover up the target? Are my iron sights quicker in low light than my scope? Is there a convenient way to switch quickly between iron sights and optics? Are the adjustments on my iron sights precise and repeatable or approximate?

Poor iron sights in my opinion are those which flip up, where you loosen a screw, or worse, two screws, and slide a small piece of flat steel with a rough notch cut in it, up and down in in the sight recess, or one which is slid back and forth along a sloped base. These adjustments are neither precise nor repeatable. The rear sight notch is too small for the front sight bead, so they tend to cover up the target. They are slow to use, because your eye must shift focus from rear to front to target, then back to front, but the massive rear sight steals your focus from the front, so you struggle to acquire proper focus. They are difficult to use in low light. They provide a poor index of windage and elevation. Frequently the position of the rear sight interferes with the mounting of the scope, and too often the solution is to move the scope too far rearward, or use mounts that are too high for the shooter to acquire a solid cheek weld, rather then junk the junk and get a good after market set of irons.

Good iron sights are typified by the better examples of the ghost ring and rectangular post, although fiber optic open sights are gaining popularity . Adjustments might be clicks, usually half minute, or they can be threaded, opposing screws for windage adjustments, and a threaded stem for elevation adjustment. Either system provides precise and repeatable adjustments. Due to the contrast between the shape and color of the front sight, and the target and background, these sights are very fast, and in the case of a ghost ring and post, you look through the aperture not at it, so it is essentially ignored, and once on target the focus is put on the front sight, and there is nothing else to distract you. IMHO, colored dots on the rear sight which are intended to provide an index of elevation and windage in poor light, also cause you to pull your focus from the front sight, which makes them less precise, and slower to use, then a front post while looking through a thin rim rear sight with a large aperture. The rectangular post provides the best index of windage and elevation. The flat top of the sight is like the horizontal wire of a cross hair, and is used the same way. The index for windage is the dimensional center of the post, a wide post is easier to work than a narrow one, as the eye finds the dimensional center very quickly, but it needs to have something on either side of center to compare.

So there are two different reasons for having iron sights on a scoped rifle. The first is that of redundancy, where iron sights can keep the rifle in play after the primary sight, the scope, is damaged. Modern hunting scopes tend to be pretty robust, but there remains a possibility that some misfortune can leave the scope unserviceable. A back up iron sight that is either already mounted to the rifle, or one that attaches to the scope mount once the scope is removed, is handier than packing a second scope through difficult terrain, and is more convenient than having to cut the day short and return to camp to swap out scopes.

The second reason is if irons are deemed to be faster than a scope in close cover. You make a 300 yard shot on a game animal, and it scampers into a thick stand of willows, or a heavy dark tangle of dead falls and standing timber. IMHO, a low power scope is better than irons due to its superior light gathering qualities, and in some cases, is combined with an illuminated reticle. But some folks insist on mounting scopes with high power magnification on their hunting rifles in anticipation of a long shot. Little thought is given to the reality of attempting to shoot quickly and at close range with a scope that can only be turned down to 4X or even 6X. Swapping out the high powered scope for a iron rear sight, solves the problem.

Obviously, it the hunter is going to be able to transition between optics and irons, some thought must be given to his mounting options. The original QD ring was the basic Weaver rings with the large screw heads holding them to a slotted base. These mounts are inexpensive, and they work, although it takes some practice to mount the scope in the rings without having the scope cant one way or another. Nevertheless, the system allows for quick scope removal, and a rear sight can be quickly mounted and the rifle is ready to go in short order. A better solution is QD rings, loosened and tightened with levers rather than screw heads, and the newer cam-lock mounts, like those from La-Rue, that are getting a reputation for strength and repeatability.
 
Good advice Boomer!

To the OP I would personally not get iron sights on a nice sako rifle if you intend to scope it; when you buy a rifle for 2g's you tend to put a scope worth about the same on top with high quality mounts between them. The chances that you have a problem with high quality optics and mounts is about the same chances that your gun breaks or jams.

The only problem I have had with a scope in the field is that the screws loosened up and the scope became slightly loose, which is my fault for not checking the screws beforehand. If you don't know what you are doing when mounting a scope go to a gunsmith and have it done (Like I should have). Torque the mount screws down to spec and use med strength locktite, check the scope mount regularly.

Also stocks tend to be shaped either for irons or for a scope.

I would second what the other posters are saying about buying multiple quality guns for the Sako price range especially for your first gun. I would recommend a new Winchester model 70 or Tikka, and a Tikka Battue in 308 for a rifle with irons. Get a good low power scope for the rifle you get without sights.

Sako's are pretty awesome guns though!
 
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