- Location
- The Hammer, ON
I have had both the tactical link and BAD levers and I like them. Most useful feature as others have mentioned is the ability to lock back the bolt easily.
Opinion on Battery Assist Levers
- Thread starter BigGameHunter
- Start date
People seem to like them, but I don't want to change how I shoot at this time.
I don't have one of these levers on my work gun. I won't have one of these on my work gun. Developing muscle memory for two sets of skills, that may or may not be required in life and death situations, seems like a poor choice to me. I practice the way I'll have to fight in order to (hopefully) function smoothly through times of intense stress.
If you're only playing on a range, I'd give it a try just for s**ts and giggles.
If you wander the bad places, with kit that is provided for you and may not have the "toys" attached, I'd say avoid it. Would be pretty s**tty to get hurt, be responsible for the death or injury of another, or worse because you'd adapted to a "non-standard" skill set/piece of kit and couldn't function in the real world.
YMMV
I don't have one of these levers on my work gun. I won't have one of these on my work gun. Developing muscle memory for two sets of skills, that may or may not be required in life and death situations, seems like a poor choice to me. I practice the way I'll have to fight in order to (hopefully) function smoothly through times of intense stress.
If you're only playing on a range, I'd give it a try just for s**ts and giggles.
If you wander the bad places, with kit that is provided for you and may not have the "toys" attached, I'd say avoid it. Would be pretty s**tty to get hurt, be responsible for the death or injury of another, or worse because you'd adapted to a "non-standard" skill set/piece of kit and couldn't function in the real world.
YMMV
You are talking about different platforms though. I dont agree with you. You train with the same weapons system you will be using in the field. If you shoot 3 gun with an AR then you train with that AR. If you convert all your ARs to the bad system then you will be ok but, what if you have to use someone elses without it? Muscle memory and training memory does not work that way. Mine anyways. If you train with a bad lever and are forced to use an AR without it you will be slower then if you would have trained with the Stoner lever all along. Just like if you train with a striker fired SA handgun and switch to a SA/DA 1911 for instance. Your time will be slower until you adapt to the safety. And, if you switch back after a year you will likely reach for that safety a few times before you remember. Its just human nature.
Exactly. I share this opinion.
Craftsman 441
CGN Regular
- Location
- Wainwright
I liked the BAD lever just fine.
Then during a reload in seacan village I went to use the BAD lever on my C7...
...and it wasn't there
I sold the BAD lever shortly afterwards.
Then during a reload in seacan village I went to use the BAD lever on my C7...
...and it wasn't there
I sold the BAD lever shortly afterwards.
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
OK so I think a fair assessment for these levers here is that if you use a gov't rifle to earn a living you should probably keep things consistent on your personal rifles to maintain your muscle memory. Agreed.
That being said, most of us here are hobby shooters so the product may have some benefit. I don't think it's fair to completely dismiss it all together.
As far as a failure during three gun? This is kind of a weak argument, most guys bring spare parts to fix their rifles in the unlikely event of a failure. If you have to borrow a friends, so what, it's not life and death just be happy your still shooting. Frankly, if you don't have the mental capacity to switch back to the stoner lever in a 3 gun match, should you really be handling said rifle in the first place?
Com'on, arguing against the use of a BAD lever because of a possible failure in 3 gun... That's lame,
That being said, most of us here are hobby shooters so the product may have some benefit. I don't think it's fair to completely dismiss it all together.
As far as a failure during three gun? This is kind of a weak argument, most guys bring spare parts to fix their rifles in the unlikely event of a failure. If you have to borrow a friends, so what, it's not life and death just be happy your still shooting. Frankly, if you don't have the mental capacity to switch back to the stoner lever in a 3 gun match, should you really be handling said rifle in the first place?
Com'on, arguing against the use of a BAD lever because of a possible failure in 3 gun... That's lame,
Hokus Grey
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere between "WTF?" and "FTW!".
I think it's a decent option, but it doesn't replace racking the charging handle. If that's the way you want to run your gear, then use it and train with it, but you have to know that there is already a mechanism there to release the bolt. It doesn't replace the charging handle either.
I liked the BAD lever just fine.
Then during a reload in seacan village I went to use the BAD lever on my C7...
...and it wasn't there
I sold the BAD lever shortly afterwards.
Better to find that out here, instead of "there".
TSE_Justin
Offical The Shooting Edge Rep.
I'm saying you should treat them like different platforms. I don't have a BAD lever on my SR-25, and I've never reached for a BAD lever that wasn't there.
Similar to 1911 vs. DS/SA vs. Striker... it's about knowing your platforms.
Yeah, but how many times have you been under pressure with an SR-25. Its not like your running a carbine course with that are you? Its more of a long range weapon. I am not saying never but, most of the time an SR-25 would be used in a more sniper/DMR role. It is under pressure that the mistake will be made. And, you cant tell me you have never fumbled a course because of changing to a different handgun after a long time on another one. I have done it and I see people at comps do it all the time. Thats why firearms tactics trainers recommend sticking to the same platform you will be using in the field. If you have to think where a control is time was wasted. Maybe not a big deal to everyone but, I train for real life. And, lost seconds really bother me. By the way Justin, just my opinion. I'm sure you are a good shooter (I know you are if you are the guy with the Dlask 1911 at TSE) and to each thier own. I just know for myself training with the same controls equals less mistakes and better times.
TSE_Justin
Offical The Shooting Edge Rep.
It's an SR-25 EMC that I do run in courses 
People seem to be a lot more 'down' on the BAD lever than they are on ambi-safeties, which are also a change in the manual of arms (not C7/C8A2's, though).
When I switched from my P226 as primary to Glock/M&P, I've never 'tried' de-cocking my striker guns... yet.
I'm not saying everyone should be able to just pick up a gun and know the controls (it's do-able, with practice). If you can, all the power to you. If not, not a big deal. Know your limitations, expand them if you can, worse comes to worse you fall back to your level of training.
I'm not the guy with the Dlask 1911, but I can let Dan know he's well regarded on CGN.
People seem to be a lot more 'down' on the BAD lever than they are on ambi-safeties, which are also a change in the manual of arms (not C7/C8A2's, though).
When I switched from my P226 as primary to Glock/M&P, I've never 'tried' de-cocking my striker guns... yet.
I'm not saying everyone should be able to just pick up a gun and know the controls (it's do-able, with practice). If you can, all the power to you. If not, not a big deal. Know your limitations, expand them if you can, worse comes to worse you fall back to your level of training.
I'm not the guy with the Dlask 1911, but I can let Dan know he's well regarded on CGN
.It's an SR-25 EMC that I do run in courses
People seem to be a lot more 'down' on the BAD lever than they are on ambi-safeties, which are also a change in the manual of arms (not C7/C8A2's, though).
When I switched from my P226 as primary to Glock/M&P, I've never 'tried' de-cocking my striker guns... yet.
I'm not saying everyone should be able to just pick up a gun and know the controls (it's do-able, with practice). If you can, all the power to you. If not, not a big deal. Know your limitations, expand them if you can, worse comes to worse you fall back to your level of training.
I'm not the guy with the Dlask 1911, but I can let Dan know he's well regarded on CGN
Sweet rifle man. Wow, that must be an expensive course of fire. lol. It is fun to use something different though. Highlights in our club included a Broomhandled Mauser and 30-06 semi.
I have never tried decocking my striker fired either but, I have tried shooting my Shadow with the safety on after shooting my M&P for a while. Yeah, I had a chance to do a bit of shooting with Dan when I was in town. He is a good shot to say the least. Even if he was shooting a high dollar custom gun. I definitely couldnt keep up with the range rental HK USP .45. Lets be honest here though, lol, I couldnt keep up if I was shooting a Nighthawk
One day i will get there lol.
Personally, I could care less if the bolt gets locked open on a rifle or pistol(slide that is) during a match. Unattended guns don't float around and discharge. Regardless, the extra time taken for such stupid actions during a fun match is trivial compared to the real issues caused by having a BAD lever that doesn't work right on your fighting/work gun, or not having it and thinking you do.
Here's where you're wrong. Operating an AK, AR, VZ, M14, Galil, G3, etc are all the same. Insert magazine, cycle the charge handle, (disengage the safety if so equipped and or employed) and shoot. Operating bolt catches or BAD levers or any other accessory not necessary to function the gun is not part of the manual of arms. Focus on feeding the thing. Inserting magazines and cycling the charge handle. It works for all semi autos and it works every time. There are several posts in this thread alone about BAD levers inducing stoppages or otherwise impeding normal operation of the rifle. How that translates into a positive for ones manual of arms I don't know. Aside from that, why not focus on your ability to make rapid shots on target on demand. The only advantage to the BAD is during a reload. If you're reloading its because you missed your target(s) or are engaging more. In either case, improving your speed on target and your accuracy on target are far more important than quickly reloading to miss again.
I kind of agree. Losing some time during a match because your rifle doesn't sport a BAD lever is a lame argument. However, the other reasons posted in this thread are valid, even for the competitor. Again, focus on making fast hits and keeping the gun fed. The rest is trivial.
TDC
CarbineOne
Regular
Oh look, TDC has pitched in.
The simple fact that the charging handle are in different locations (not to mention safety, as well as style of magazine lock) makes them not the same. I have seen 30 year veterans of the CF (not calling out our CF, just an example) reach for non-existent charging handles at the rear of AK/Sig etc. receivers under courses of fire. It's still a different set of movements and muscle memory. They are different.
The like/dislike of the BAD levers have nothing to do with accuracy/speed of actual shooting. Thanks for bringing it up though. I use BAD levers on some of my guns, I guess that means I should go practice oiling my AR more.
Here is where you're wrong. In the broadest sense, yes, reloading of rifles, shotguns, and semi-auto handguns all work the same. You insert thing with bullets, and then actuate charging handle/slide and continue firing.
The simple fact that the charging handle are in different locations (not to mention safety, as well as style of magazine lock) makes them not the same. I have seen 30 year veterans of the CF (not calling out our CF, just an example) reach for non-existent charging handles at the rear of AK/Sig etc. receivers under courses of fire. It's still a different set of movements and muscle memory. They are different.
I've seen charging handles short-stroke, inducing stoppages or otherwise impeding normal operation of the rifle. Doesn't mean CH's are bad, it means you need to learn their function and limitations, like any other piece of equipment.
The like/dislike of the BAD levers have nothing to do with accuracy/speed of actual shooting. Thanks for bringing it up though. I use BAD levers on some of my guns, I guess that means I should go practice oiling my AR more.
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
The only BAD lever I saw installed gave the owner a bunch of problems. He had to remove it early on the first day of the course we were on. That issue, coupled with all the problems posted about it on various forums, makes me not want to bother with one.
You're right, there is always some change in your manual of arms when changing platforms. That being said, why introduce even more information/methods to learn by bolting unnecessary junk to the rifle? Keep your methods simple and similar across the board.
As for short stroking, that is entirely operator error. A short stroke on a reload produces a type one stoppage/malfunction, the empty chamber. Solved by your immediate action. The same stoppage/malfunction is produced when you reach for the bad lever or bolt catch only to find the bolt is already forward. Short stroking with a loaded chamber whether that be after a tac reload or as a result of immediate action, results in the same risk of either a type two or type three malfunction, the failure to eject or double feed respectively. Seeing as how the BAD lever is only functional with the bolt locked to the rear. The issue of short stroking the charge handle from the same position is moot, as its not possible. As long as you release the bolt via the CH you will achieve the same result as the BAD, as its only purpose is to release the bolt when discussing reloads.
On the flip side, the releasing of the bolt with the BAD lever is entirely dependent on the BC/BAD locking the bolt to the rear. The benefit of the BAD is dependent on the proper function of the BC. The CH on the other hand is independent of all other operations, and as noted, is present on all semi auto rifles. The CH is also 100% effective at loading the rifle regardless of bolt position. The BC/BAD is only effective when the bolt is in one of its two positions. Making the bad lever on average, effective only 50% of the time.
The other advantage to the BC/BAD setup is the ease at which you can lock the bolt to the rear. I agree that it is much easier and faster to use the BC/BAD over the BC alone. The issue with this is the fact that the CH must be used with both methods. The ease of use with the BC/BAD does not make locking the bolt to the rear anymore effective than using the BC alone. It simply makes it more efficient.
To my mind, that makes the BC/BAD an advantage for only one of its two operations, that is locking the bolt to the rear manually. Seeing as how such action is only required during the very rare occurrence of a type three malfunction/stoppage or when clearing your rifle, which is done after the clock has stopped or the threat has ended. I don't see the benefit to the BAD. The improved efficiency during a type three stoppage is heavily outweighed by the fact that such stoppages are very rare(if you run a quality gun and maintain it properly) and by the risk of impeding the normal operation of the bolt catch(failure to lock open on last round). As I mentioned above, the failure of the bolt to lock to the rear due to the use of the BAD, renders half of its advantage nul an void. The BAD lever is effective, but not 100% efficient as it can and does fail.
Focusing on effectively running your gun and focusing on making hits at speed, is far more important and productive than worrying about running your gun the fastest(not necessarily the most efficient) way possible.
TDC
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Some matches/competitions do require the shooter to show clear prior to a transition to a secondary, when the clock is running. However unless the CofF requires this clearing before you run the gun dry (and the bolt locks back as intended) the advantage of the BAD is moot as long as your rifle is running correctly and maintained.
As for the rest, I basically agree. In the end though it is a user preference. For some it is a plus.....so they might as well have one. To each their own. If it is a positive all is good, if it is a negative....to bad for them.
No doubt the BAD can be an asset for showing clear at a match, but there's other opinions on that. First, its a match, not your life so stop worrying about a second here or there. Second, why manually show clear when you could dumpt the remaining rounds until slide/bolt lock. Third, outside of gaming it, who cares if the bolt locks to the rear before transitioning.
TDC
