opinion wanted

If you want to manufacture rimfire, among the most critical aspects is getting the primer compound properly distributed in the bottom of the case. It's not a science, it's an art.

Count on producing absolute cr@p ammo for the first year or so. Or alternatively, don't release product until you have it right, or sell substandard ammo under another brand. Just saying you might want to add in a couple million for startup and debugging. The market will tolerate a product being late, but they will never forget, or forgive, if the quality is bad.

Take a look at one example of what happened with the manufacturing of plated bullets. There used to be an independent manufacturer in Toronto up to about 6 or so years ago. His products were very inconsistent, trending towards terrible. That business was bought out and started up again as AIM Projectiles about 6 years ago. They had lots of teething problems, but their products are now good, however they aren't any cheaper than imports. They had the benefit of having an established lead foundry to fall back on for continuing revenue while working out the bugs in their bullet manufacturing venture.

Starting out from scratch? Have lots of cash to sustain the business for a couple years. And plan on having enough cash to buy a couple key employees to get started and get your quality up.

I've been involved in a couple startups. There's never been enough time, cash or expertise in specialized areas.

That said, I wish you well. It's an exciting, yet incredibly stressful time.


EDIT: Here's an interesting read http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/Impossible-22-rimfire
 
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3.5M seems like a lot of money...until you start an ammo manufacturing facility.

If the concept was born because of the current shortage, there might be fully stocked shelves before the first round is off the line.

That typed, I would like to buy Canadian. As cheap as I am, would still pay a touch more for a comparative product made locally.
 
Ill buy from you for sure, just make sure you become a site vendor to let us know when its availible and lots of us will dump money into ammo when you sell it. BTW, big shortage of 17 WSM ammo right now, fellas with 17 WSMs are likely to stockpile whatever they can get there hands on cause the shelves have been bare.
 
My advice for what it worth is:

Get the contract from the CF to dispose of their 5.56 brass this will allow you to get cheap quality brass.

Then buy land around Montreal area this will allow you to have access to alot of transport companies (land and sea).

And most importantly wait before investing to much, the current demonizing of firearms could put a quick halt to your company.

When my father ask me if the firearms industry could be the way to go(quality cnc laminated wooden stocks was what he was looking at) I told him to hold off as although it could be a lucrative businesd it just not worth the risk, he instead opened 2 new companies transport (security)/storage related.

As per me personnally I had a contact able to provide me with quality Arisaka rifles in prestine condition but being a full time CF member I abandoned the idea as I had no time to invest in getting all the licenses.

Cheers
PA
 
metalbender said:
Sounds like a great idea. Used to shoot CIL ammo years ago. The Canadian market is rather small, export to the US would surely improve the chances of success with your venture.
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Speaking of CIL, I was touring one of their facilities about a year and a half ago and found out that they still have all their equipment to make ammo. Say the executives at CIL are totally out of touch with the ammo market and that there was a demand for Canadian ammo, well it wouldn't take long for them to notice a startup doing well at which time all they have to do is to literally flip a switch, no retooling required. Not to sound grim but they would completely crush the competition with their deep pockets. Reality is that CIL knows that the market is not big enough in Canada. If I had 10 million in the bank and I am not saying that I do, but If I did, I would totally and exclusively buy your ammo but shares is a different story.
 
Garaldtao said:
Speaking of CIL, I was touring one of their facilities about a year and a half ago and found out that they still have all their equipment to make ammo. Say the executives at CIL are totally out of touch with the ammo market and that there was a demand for Canadian ammo, well it wouldn't take long for them to notice a startup doing well at which time all they have to do is to literally flip a switch, no retooling required. Not to sound grim but they would completely crush the competition with their deep pockets. Reality is that CIL knows that the market is not big enough in Canada. If I had 10 million in the bank and I am not saying that I do, but If I did, I would totally and exclusively buy your ammo but shares is a different story.
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They must be completely ignorant of what's going on in the US as well.
 
Garaldtao said:
Speaking of CIL, I was touring one of their facilities about a year and a half ago and found out that they still have all their equipment to make ammo. Say the executives at CIL are totally out of touch with the ammo market and that there was a demand for Canadian ammo, well it wouldn't take long for them to notice a startup doing well at which time all they have to do is to literally flip a switch, no retooling required. Not to sound grim but they would completely crush the competition with their deep pockets. Reality is that CIL knows that the market is not big enough in Canada. If I had 10 million in the bank and I am not saying that I do, but If I did, I would totally and exclusively buy your ammo but shares is a different story.
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I'm not so sure the size of the Canadian market alone should be a major hindrance. If you look at Eley, there can't be that much demand for ammo in GB, yet they've been doing pretty darned good for a long time. Lapua is another company that comes to mind - Canada's market must be a fair bit bigger than Finland's. I'm sure there are several more companies that would be in similar circumstances. And to those that say $3.5 M is not enough, it sure sounds like a pretty darned good chunk of seed money and would certainly get. bankers' and investors' attention, if the business plan is viable. If you can put out a quality product at a reasonable price, with consistent output, I can't see why you wouldn't do quite well. As for the present shortage of .22 ammo fixing itself, who knows how long that will take, and by then, you may very well have some new product lines. One possibility might be black powder - it's as hard to get hold of here in Canada as Papal Poop.

Either way, if you do decide to go ahead, best of luck to you
 
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're serious.

First, ignore anyone who says move to Quebec. Nice place to visit, to bad I live here. The slightest breeze in the wrong direction and you're closed down. Period. All of the subsidies, tax breaks, and other bribes will get burned away in dealing with our lovely SQ overlords and the various other political and union parasites.

Next, you need to plan ahead. The number one reason that ranges all over are being shut down is lead contamination. Lead 22 will still be around for a long time to come but you'll be able to cut a serious piece of the market off for yourself if you can make a decent lead free round ( ie: gov contracts and the state of California ). Any kind of Mini Mag equivalent is a license to print money.

No matter what, without fail, Do Not deal with Canadian Tire, Walmart, or any of the other big boxes. They'll just cut your throat for price and dump you in the cabinet like any other generic product to gather dust. That would kill you before you get off the ground. Keep your distribution chain as short as possible and you can not only compete with the big's you can beat the crap out of them because of their antiquated distribution model.
 
GSG1911 said:
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're serious.

First, ignore anyone who says move to Quebec. Nice place to visit, to bad I live here. The slightest breeze in the wrong direction and you're closed down. Period. All of the subsidies, tax breaks, and other bribes will get burned away in dealing with our lovely SQ overlords and the various other political and union parasites.

Next, you need to plan ahead. The number one reason that ranges all over are being shut down is lead contamination. Lead 22 will still be around for a long time to come but you'll be able to cut a serious piece of the market off for yourself if you can make a decent lead free round ( ie: gov contracts and the state of California ). Any kind of Mini Mag equivalent is a license to print money.

No matter what, without fail, Do Not deal with Canadian Tire, Walmart, or any of the other big boxes. They'll just cut your throat for price and dump you in the cabinet like any other generic product to gather dust. That would kill you before you get off the ground. Keep your distribution chain as short as possible and you can not only compete with the big's you can beat the crap out of them because of their antiquated distribution model.
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Might I also add that the larger your distribution chain, the more bureaucracy you will need to administer it. That means that you have to sell more to pay for those extra people, or cut costs, or quality.
 
Congratulations!

Anyone who can amass over $1million (assuming you and your buddies are equal partners) to gamble on a venture of this type...and who does so even though handicapped by atrocious spelling, grammar and punctuation...must possess huge amounts of initiative, drive, commitment and perseverance. You'll need those traits to succeed.

Good luck getting a business loan for the balance.
 
I don't know a single ammunition manufacturer that produces solely rimfire ammo other than Eley in the UK, and they've been around for almost 200 years.
The fact all others have had to diversify leads me to believe income from the rimfire ammo alone isn't enough to maintain operations.

Good luck in your venture, but do your research before diving in.
 
.30/06 FTW said:
They must be completely ignorant of what's going on in the US as well.
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A big business can't start and stop just because the market takes an up swing. It has to be sustainable in the long run, especially training and retaining key employees. It's also why US ammo companies aren't putting in new ammo manufacturing lines, they are just running more shifts on their existing lines. They know/suspect that demand will drop as the market becomes saturated. Might take a year or two, but it will happen. At that point, they just cut the number of shifts, they don't have to idle a production line and employees.

Apparently Aguila in Mexico is adding production lines. That's what happens when the market is hot. More existing players enter the market. Which will also mean we will likely have lots of cheap 22 ammo in a couple years from all the new production that's coming online right now.

Anyone going into manufacturing or supplying a commodity/product that happens to be at a high price right now, better have low enough manufacturing costs to survive selling that product at half that cost.


The best place for a "Canadian" company to manufacture ammo? Anyplace other than Canada....... Have a Canadian office, but manufacture elsewhere.
 
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SandRoad said:
A big business can't start and stop just because the market takes an up swing. It has to be sustainable in the long run, especially training and retaining key employees. It's also why US ammo companies aren't putting in new ammo manufacturing lines, they are just running more shifts on their existing lines. They know/suspect that demand will drop as the market becomes saturated. Might take a year or two, but it will happen. At that point, they just cut the number of shifts, they don't have to idle a production line and employees.

Apparently Aguila in Mexico is adding production lines. That's what happens when the market is hot. More existing players enter the market. Which will also mean we will likely have lots of cheap 22 ammo in a couple years from all the new production that's coming online right now.

Anyone going into manufacturing or supplying a commodity/product that happens to be at a high price right now, better have low enough manufacturing costs to survive selling that product at half that cost.


The best place for a "Canadian" company to manufacture ammo? Anyplace other than Canada....... Have a Canadian office, but manufacture elsewhere.
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I don't know - there are plenty of small to mid-size manufacturing firms making money here (maybe not in Ontario, but...). The problems I've seen is when they try to compete or break into the Wal-Mart, Bass Pro, etc., chains. We have a more than competitive workforce, pretty fair taxation for companies, are close to a HUGE market, have reliable transportation, energy, and a stable political climate. I'm pretty sure a company that makes a quality product, at a fair price for that product (it may very well not be $18 a brick .22 ammo) could make a good go of it. Just don't try to sell to Wal-mart, who will insist that it BE $18 a brick crap, or try to go too big, where you end up with a huge office and marketing staff to pay for. At 2% net profit margin, you have to generate $50 in sales for each and every admin dollar you spend, just to break even. I think that's where a lot of companies kill themselves. Determine what a reasonable return on your investments would be, aim for that, and don't aim to become a CCI, and you should make it just fine.
 
You only come this way once!! Do it!! And push hard -- also keep your eyes open for related business opportunities eg you may find that brass production pushes you into another niche market involving brass/copper extrusions ... anyway you wont find out till you try! We need more - lots more - manufacturing entrepreneurs in Ontario/Canada.

The advice to stay away from big box is ok BUT there may be times that the cash flow will keep you alive and you do what you have to do! BUT be careful of agreements that tie you to a distributor without some performance guarantees - otherwise if they fail to perform/market your product you could be SOL. And watch out that you keep the agreements current .. eg if you ramp up production (and capital investment) based on increased demand with an old performance agreement ... you'll be hung out to dry when/if demand drops,
 
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