Opinions on de-sporterized Lee-Enfields? Value, collectibility, etc?
- Thread starter commissar_lubi
- Start date
They are worth what people are willing to pay. I know that is an old cliche but it is true.
I have no problem with a desported rifle. If it was done correctly why not. Here is the thing. The rifle is the receiver and barrel. In fact, even just the receiver. All the rest of the parts could have been changed out in it's life. I have rebuilt a lot of sporters and I get the odd comment that if it was altered out of service it is no longer the real thing.
Bull
I was an armourer in the RCEME and was trained on these things. So I am just continuing my work.
I have no problem with a desported rifle. If it was done correctly why not. Here is the thing. The rifle is the receiver and barrel. In fact, even just the receiver. All the rest of the parts could have been changed out in it's life. I have rebuilt a lot of sporters and I get the odd comment that if it was altered out of service it is no longer the real thing.
Bull
I was an armourer in the RCEME and was trained on these things. So I am just continuing my work.
I do this as a labour of love. I have never sold one of my desporterized rifles for more than $550. Unfortunately the supply of affordable stocks have dried up, so rebuilding one is now in the $700 range. That is why you see originals sell in the $900+ range.
Deltasilver
Regular
- Location
- Right behind you...
I took one of Lou's rebuilds on trade last year and the stock fit is better than a few OEM rifles I've owned. One of my favourite shooters.
Buyers need to know what's correct and what's not but Points has it right; they're worth what someone is willing to pay.
Buyers need to know what's correct and what's not but Points has it right; they're worth what someone is willing to pay.
I once paid $500 for a 1914 sporter, but any regular old joe one I wouldnt pay more than $300 for. I got one last year for $120, restorable. Deals are still out there. Why prices are going this high is because people are paying them. Insanity.
It's often extremely difficult to tell the difference between a "de sporterized" rifle and an original factory model.
There are a lot of circumstances that occur in the history of most milsurps that enhance the difficulties.
One is basic repairs to furniture, replacement of furniture pieces or even complete stock sets by the REMEs. Then there are the Factory Thorough Repaired rifles which are stripped to their component parts, completely refinished and reassembled. The FTR rifles are usually marked as such but some nations didn't do this. Sweden for example with those lovely M96, M38, M94 Mausers. Most of those have been FTRed several times but nothing on them to indicate how often or that it was even done. The only indication on many of them is the early dates on M96 rifles converted to M38 configuration after 1940.
Many of the parts used on rebuilt sporters are original. Often the stamps on those parts will correspond with those on the rifle perfectly. Mausers and Lee Enfields were manufactured to certain specs so that their component parts were interchangeable between manufacturers and models strikes.
Sometimes it's quite obvious but when a talented individual gathers original parts and assembles a rifle to milspec standard it could quite easily be called the "real thing." The only difference being it wasn't assembled under government/military supervision. In some nations, especially a few South American cases the rifles may have been modified or assembled by contractors. It may even happen in most nations.
You just need to be aware of what you're purchasing. At today's prices on components a converted milsurp to a sporter can cost about a third the price of an original rifle if it's restorable. Then add a about the same amount or more for the stock and another 20% for the metal bits. Factor in the time and if the job is done correctly you have a rifle that can't be detected from original.
Some folks prefer such a rifle because they can assemble it properly as per specifications and refinements for accuracy. In some cases this adds value depending on the criteria you're looking at.
Collectors of original pieces look very closely at all such rifles and will reject them for the most part. They certainly won't pay top dollar for them unless there is something unique/collectible about them that just can't be found normally.
My only issue with put togethers is that the poeple doing the job just slap the parts together with little or no concern that the job is being done correctly, such as galled screw slots, missing bedding spacers and especially in the case of Lee Enfields damaged "ways" even on new old stock pieces that have been assembled or disassembled improperly or on old take off fore ends that have badly worn ways.
All in all, IMHO a sporter doesn't have different company logos on them and if they are assembled properly on original/corresponding components they can be very good representative examples of their class. Still they shouldn't be valued as high as originals in similar condition.
Many of the older sporters were actually built on components made for the military. Fine examples of such sporters are the Lee Metfords and later mark Lee magazine rifles, Mausers etc. Firearms Customisers would purchase the actions and some components directly from the factory and assemble beautiful rifles on them. Value is in the eye of the beholder.
I have seen some incredibly nice sporters made in such a manner. The only "custom" rifles I have seen that were made up on factory new No4 receivers were those made in Canada by CAI. Lots of milsurps were modified either minimally or extensively into exceptional hunting and even target rifles. Again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is value per se'.
There are a lot of circumstances that occur in the history of most milsurps that enhance the difficulties.
One is basic repairs to furniture, replacement of furniture pieces or even complete stock sets by the REMEs. Then there are the Factory Thorough Repaired rifles which are stripped to their component parts, completely refinished and reassembled. The FTR rifles are usually marked as such but some nations didn't do this. Sweden for example with those lovely M96, M38, M94 Mausers. Most of those have been FTRed several times but nothing on them to indicate how often or that it was even done. The only indication on many of them is the early dates on M96 rifles converted to M38 configuration after 1940.
Many of the parts used on rebuilt sporters are original. Often the stamps on those parts will correspond with those on the rifle perfectly. Mausers and Lee Enfields were manufactured to certain specs so that their component parts were interchangeable between manufacturers and models strikes.
Sometimes it's quite obvious but when a talented individual gathers original parts and assembles a rifle to milspec standard it could quite easily be called the "real thing." The only difference being it wasn't assembled under government/military supervision. In some nations, especially a few South American cases the rifles may have been modified or assembled by contractors. It may even happen in most nations.
You just need to be aware of what you're purchasing. At today's prices on components a converted milsurp to a sporter can cost about a third the price of an original rifle if it's restorable. Then add a about the same amount or more for the stock and another 20% for the metal bits. Factor in the time and if the job is done correctly you have a rifle that can't be detected from original.
Some folks prefer such a rifle because they can assemble it properly as per specifications and refinements for accuracy. In some cases this adds value depending on the criteria you're looking at.
Collectors of original pieces look very closely at all such rifles and will reject them for the most part. They certainly won't pay top dollar for them unless there is something unique/collectible about them that just can't be found normally.
My only issue with put togethers is that the poeple doing the job just slap the parts together with little or no concern that the job is being done correctly, such as galled screw slots, missing bedding spacers and especially in the case of Lee Enfields damaged "ways" even on new old stock pieces that have been assembled or disassembled improperly or on old take off fore ends that have badly worn ways.
All in all, IMHO a sporter doesn't have different company logos on them and if they are assembled properly on original/corresponding components they can be very good representative examples of their class. Still they shouldn't be valued as high as originals in similar condition.
Many of the older sporters were actually built on components made for the military. Fine examples of such sporters are the Lee Metfords and later mark Lee magazine rifles, Mausers etc. Firearms Customisers would purchase the actions and some components directly from the factory and assemble beautiful rifles on them. Value is in the eye of the beholder.
I have seen some incredibly nice sporters made in such a manner. The only "custom" rifles I have seen that were made up on factory new No4 receivers were those made in Canada by CAI. Lots of milsurps were modified either minimally or extensively into exceptional hunting and even target rifles. Again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is value per se'.
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There are beech wood stock sets on ebay for the No4Mk1. I might add, many parts too... Heck even some No1MkIII* stock sets, but made in India with the ishy screw.
The issue is when people sell these off and don't tell anyone it's a de sporterized rifle. The quality of the reassembled rifle is also subject to the quality of the parts used.
Like damaged screws, scratched up barrel bands, milled vs sheet metal parts. Mixed metal finish like phosphate vs suncort vs blued. Obsolete components on a rifle that
would never have a 300/600 yard sight on it if it was FTR'd in 1953 in the UK. In some cases, I have seen attempts to put long range dial sights on a post 1920 No.1 MkIII stock pattern.
Do it right, Do it well. Just to add, that's why allot of fellows who restore firearms have alot of surplus of parts on hand in there workshops.
The issue is when people sell these off and don't tell anyone it's a de sporterized rifle. The quality of the reassembled rifle is also subject to the quality of the parts used.
Like damaged screws, scratched up barrel bands, milled vs sheet metal parts. Mixed metal finish like phosphate vs suncort vs blued. Obsolete components on a rifle that
would never have a 300/600 yard sight on it if it was FTR'd in 1953 in the UK. In some cases, I have seen attempts to put long range dial sights on a post 1920 No.1 MkIII stock pattern.
Do it right, Do it well. Just to add, that's why allot of fellows who restore firearms have alot of surplus of parts on hand in there workshops.
The thing you don't mention is that a lot of rifles were repaired and put back into the system with these mixmaster parts just to get them back into the field or keep them there during the wars. Many were later sold off as surplus or given to other nations to enhance their defensive capabilities or in some case as payment for war reparations. Some of those recipients did try to put the firearms back to their original state but many, such as India, Turkey and several others could have cared less and only wanted them to go bang in the direction they were pointed at.
When I worked for Lever Arms five decades ago, I got to see literally hundreds of thousands of such firearms. A few of those in the store but also at International in Montreal when they had their main warehouses/workshops there. You want to talk about mixmasters. I don't want to be crass here but all correct rifles were anomalies, not the norm. Even when shipments came in of factory fresh rifles they were often mismatched in many ways. Serial numbers were ignored and mixed as were stock sets. Lee Enfields of all marks, Garands, Mausers etc are fine examples of this. Towards the end of their conflicts they were slapped together without a lot of concern. Sometimes, depending on circumstances, parts that were discarded for cosmetic reasons were then utilized. Last ditch weapons of all sorts are examples of this. Then of course a lot of lend lease firearms went to nations after being declared obsolete in the arsenals of their nations of origin. The recipients of those firearms cannibalized worn or damaged firearms for parts. Sometimes they stripped everything they had down, refurbished all of the parts and reassembled them with no regard whatsoever for serialization. A good example of this are the Russian Capture Mausers. The Soviets shipped many of those captured/refurbed Mausers to conflict zones all over the world.
Collectors dream of getting examples that are all correct and in factory fresh condition. The facts are that many such firearms assembled under stressful conditions do not match those dreams.
I do agree though. If possible when bringing a firearm back to what should be its original glory it is prudent to do it right. The thing is do it right under which sets of conditions.
Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
A de-sporterized rifle in my opinion unless it is something exceptionally unique is never worth the price of a original rifle. Personally I feel the prices of milsurps have been jumping a lot simply due to the lack of knowledge of the buyers.
Before it was a more limited market who tended to be more knowledgeable as to what the items were worth (i.e. able to properly identify matching parts, original condition, repairs, rebuilds, condition, model, etc.). Now the market has increased dramatically but the amount of knowledgeable people hasn't gone up to the same proportion. The result is tons of people buying without understanding what should bring in more money, and as such the price shoots up even on the poorest examples.
Before it was a more limited market who tended to be more knowledgeable as to what the items were worth (i.e. able to properly identify matching parts, original condition, repairs, rebuilds, condition, model, etc.). Now the market has increased dramatically but the amount of knowledgeable people hasn't gone up to the same proportion. The result is tons of people buying without understanding what should bring in more money, and as such the price shoots up even on the poorest examples.
