Opinions wanted on Win 748 powder

H4831 said:
Well Mr. Star, You took in too much territory in your broad statement above!
I am looking at a Winchester Ball Powder Loading Data manual, I don't k now what year, but it is marked Eighth Edition. In a 34 page manual, covering shotshell, pistol and rifle, it does not, anywhere in the manual, mention the word primer. That is, it does not say in the entire manual, showing every type of their ball powder, in every class of firearm, that a magnum primer should be used. Primers are not mentioned.
In referring to Winchester Ball Powder #748, it states, "Rifle powder popular with bench rest shooters in cartridges such as 222 Remington. Wide range of applications in calibres 222 to 458 Winchester Magnum."
Here is their complete statement, Ball Powder Propellant.
Winchester smokeless propellants meet almost every reloading requirement. Our exclusive manufacturing process produces power with excellent ballistic uniformity. Smooth flowing for precision metering, cleaner and cooler burning--these are just some of advantages you'll have when you use Winchester Ball Powder Propellant. It fulfills the specific requirements of the most discriminating reloader. Winchester Ball Powder propellant duplicates the exact same high standards and quality of Winchester factory loads.
* 10 different Ball Powder propellants-for shotguns, rifles and handguns-for a wide range of calibres and gauges.
* Offers the greatest chemical stability ever attained in small arms propellant.
* Low barrel erosion due to lower flame temperature.
* High energy, clean burning.
* Less muzzle flash.
* more uniform "thrown" charges due to smooth flow of Ball Powder propellant.
* All Winchester powders are double-based for maximum energy."

Where does it mention one word about being temperature unstable? (It doesn't)
So, are you going to keep on warming the cartridges to your body temperature and loading lighter in hot weather, and a whole host of other unproven theories on these blogs, or are you going to do like a great many of us have always done, just go by what Winchester states in their own manuals, load whatever primers we usually use and shoot the same loads in any temperature that comes along?
Bruce
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Speer manual for one shows mag primers for all ball powder loads.
Why would a company mention it's powder is not temp consistent if all they make is ball powder? Kind of a known fact is it not?
Hodgdon lists all it's temp stable powders (all extruded ones BTW) and we know H414 is the same powder as Win 760 so it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion they are more temp sensitive.
Hodgdon, in the 2009 ed, published win 748 fired form 308 win would lose over 110 fps in temp variation form 125 to 0 degrees farenhiet. varget varies only 8 fps by comparison.
 
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I missed a page in the Winchester manual on my first post, so here it is. Note they recommend their own, standard primers for all rifle calibres with their Ball Powders. They show a SPMagnum primer, small pistol magnum, but that is not applicable to loading rifle cartridges.
I believe I have now stated all the material regarding their using Winchester Ball Powders, so this will be my final post on the subject.
And thanks guys for your comments.
rE48srG.jpg
 
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I wouldn't use or recommend Win primers since they put out those pinhole popping batches a few years ago. Had a few pop in some beater rifles, seen some nice guns with damaged bolts from them too. Their brass is pretty much garbage these days as well.
Powders are fine since they are under the Hodgdon umbrella... Nothing wrong with those.
 
H4831 said:
I missed a page in the Winchester manual on my first post, so here it is. Note they recommend their own, standard primers for all rifle calibres with their Ball Powders. They show a SPMagnum primer, small pistol magnum, but that is not applicable to loading rifle cartridges.
I believe I have now stated all the material regarding their using Winchester Ball Powders, so this will be my final post on the subject.
And thanks guys for your comments.
rE48srG.jpg
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I think that manual is from back in the day when Winchester only made 1 variation of LR primer, which was equivalent to a magnum primer.
Their "Staynless" centerfire primers have been out of production for 40 years maybe? How old is that manual lol?
 
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I have done a lot of load development over the years and sometimes used ball powders, including 748.

A powder like 4895 can be used over a wide range of loads, from very mild to full power. If you try to make mild loads with ball powder, you have problems like poor SD and erratic ignition, including hangfires and misfires.

If the load is less than full power, I find a magnum primer helps, as does a firm crimp.

I am pretty sure I have read Winchester data that said their powders (ball powders) should be ignited with their Standard primer. I have found their primer to be towards the hot end of the spectrum.

My experience has been that if the case is full, or almost full, any standard primer will work. But the ball powder is dense and often does not fill the case, so a hotter primer is a good idea.
 
I use 748 in Win308 loads. This was shot at 100yds:
Date: Oct 19
Loc: Kgtn
Bullet: Hornady 165 BTSP
Powder / Weight: Win 748 / 43.5gr
Primer: Win Lg Rifle
Case: Federal
Rifle: Rem 700BDL
DSC00293.jpg
 
sure as shootin said:
No offence but I think you need to do a little more reading on Barnes TSX or TTSX projectiles. Because they are are monolithic bullet (copper) they'll retain almost 100% of their weight upon impact so in essence it's like using a 175 - 180 gr. cup and core or bonded bullet which loses considerable amount of it's original weight. Also because it's a lighter bullet it has much greater velocity when loaded to maximum levels. Now I wouldn't EVER target grizzlies with it but 150 gr. TTSX / TSX are really all you need for any ungulate loaded to 2900 fps, especially if you know where to hit them. Take them out at the shoulder,,,,,little to no meat damage and no lead dispersed through the front half of their body.

So I did a load work up this morning before all the comments finished coming in but I used Fed 210 primers. Am I to assume these primers are OK? It is the first time I've used a ball powder so I didn't even consider using magnum primers, as suggested above. Sure don't want to pull all the bullets to start over. I just used the Barnes data for the 150 gr. TSX and Win 748 was listed as one of the powders you could use,,,,, and the Fed 210 was the primer listed to use.

Powder stability is my main concern.
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go ahead and use the Fed 210 I've loaded 300 to 400 rounds of 308 with 748 and probably twice that in 30-06. I haven't had any ignition problems and temperature doesn't seem to be an issue ( all nosler 150-165 grain)
 
I've shot a couple kegs of W748 in .308 and .222 Rem. I like it for ease of loading and consistent results for hunting and plinking in moderate weather. I am not a benchrest or long range target shooter. I have not chronographed 748 loads in extreme weather, but the few times I've used 748 loads in hot weather ( 30°) shooting gophers or in very cold shooting coyotes ( -30°) it worked OK, no complaints. Perhaps the variation in poi was less than my aiming error. I use Winchester standard primers for 748 loads in these cartridges, just like Winchester recommends. But Winchester primers are a little "hotter" than most.
 
bigedp51 said:
I don't get it, I'm an American and you Canadians are saying 748 is temp sensitive?

Its freakin COLD in Canada and it doesn't get as hot as our southern states where the temperature gets much warmer.

Even in the summer in Canada its cooler because you are all swatting mosquitoes and keeping the air moving.

Bottom line, ball powders are powder measure friendly and our military likes ball powders because they load the cases by volume and not weight.

And I use two ball powders in my AR15 rifles, H335 and 748 and Varget in my .223 bolt action.

P.S. I try not to shoot when its hot outside and prefer to stay inside in the air conditioning and thinking I would rather be in cool Canada. :cheers:
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Most powders lose power/pressure when it gets "cold". Some powders are more prone to do so than others. Coming from the subtropics you probably haven't experienced "cold" but you can google it. :)

There usually is a marked difference in pressures generated between -20 and +70 (Fahrenheit). Someone who developed a load in mid winter can find that load is warmer than planned in mid summer, and vicey versey. Even in Canada.
 
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When I started reloading back in the early 90's, I used win 748 for .223. I kept 500 rounds in reserve stored in a large ammo can in an unheated area. Back in the summer, I figured I better use up some of my old ammo so I shoot those rounds. Out of those 500 there were 20 or so that acted funny, a couple seemed like the primer just popped lodging the bullet in the barrel. The rest were mild like shooting a .22.
 
Have done a lot of shooting over the chronograph and kept a lot of notes...Found that on average you lose or gain 1.5-2 fps with a degree F temperature change...When I know the hunt will be in very cold conditions I load the ammo stiffer and use magnum primers.

Ball powder always showed a little more sensitivity to temperature change then stick.
 
Always used mag primers with 748 and hunted in weather as cold as -40 F+ the windchill................ Deer still dropped dead.Harold
 
mbogo3 said:
Always used mag primers with 748 and hunted in weather as cold as -40 F+ the windchill................ Deer still dropped dead.Harold
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This!!! Over the years, I have burned a large quantity of W748, W760, W780, & W785. Always have used Magnum primers with them, never had a big issue with
temps. I developed a 30-06 load, using the 165 grain Partition, a WLRM Primer in WW-Super brass. The load was 60 grainsof W760 in this rifle. Velocity in the summer was 2922
avg for 5. I had it sighted in 3" high at 100 in warm weather.
At -35ºC, the group was 1¾" high at 100......I did not chrony the load, so cannot make a comment on it, but for certain, I would not have missed any game inside of
350 yards or so, because of the temp variances.
I have always felt that, [outside of specific LR target uses] the temp variances are rather inconsequential for most hunting situstions.
The key, of course, is to shoot the load in cold weather to see how it behaves. Regards, Dave.
 
Hitzy said:
I think that manual is from back in the day when Winchester only made 1 variation of LR primer, which was equivalent to a magnum primer.
Their "Staynless" centerfire primers have been out of production for 40 years maybe? How old is that manual lol?
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!0 yrs ago I got a 2500-3000 staynless primers at an auction. Every one of them went bang. cool schtuph
 
mbogo3 said:
Always used mag primers with 748 and hunted in weather as cold as -40 F+ the windchill................ Deer still dropped dead.Harold
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No arguing with success, and I agree, there is not enough difference in velocity vs. temperature to matter for most deer hunting, but you should know that "windchill" is NOT temperature, and the only figure that matters to powder is actual temperature, not the rate of heat loss caused by wind that makes it "feel like" some colder temperature. Just had to get that off my chest. ;-)
 
Longwalker said:
that makes it "feel like" some colder temperature ;-)
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Saskatchewan.:d:d There's no wind here...lol. I give kudos to all hunters that have hunted in these conditions. Thk Up until last year too many of those during white tail season.

Tagged. Ball powders and usage of different/magnum primers.

Regards
Ronr
 
Longwalker said:
No arguing with success, and I agree, there is not enough difference in velocity vs. temperature to matter for most deer hunting, but you should know that "windchill" is NOT temperature, and the only figure that matters to powder is actual temperature, not the rate of heat loss caused by wind that makes it "feel like" some colder temperature. Just had to get that off my chest. ;-)
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you're right, wind only robs heat faster from higher-than-ambient temperature things (or beings).
as such, at -10ºC a rifle won't get to -24ºC in a 50mph wind but rather stay at -10ºC.
but the human holding it is going to feel a heat loss equivalent to being at a windless -24ºC.
in the same scenario, your car engine will reach -10ºC faster with wind that without it but will not go below.
 
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