Optics for service rifle?
- Thread starter Canadian eh!
- Start date
Am I missing any other attributes that would steer someone to a FFP scope over a SFP one?
KD ranges and PWTs (more or less what we see as SR matches) are the basis for range estimation and small arms proficiency (at least they were when I was in) It is elementary military field craft...by design.
What one lacks in technical accoutrements (a FFP, variable power scope), they make up for in training (range estimation through practical experience). Much like using the principles of marksmanship over stuff like sleds and sandbags.
In a match like SR where everything is canned and there is no reward for doing things more quickly and more efficiently, the advantages of FFP are nullified. Your shooter can rely on the know distance and target size to dial in, and has plenty of time to do his MOA math for corrections. The advantages of FFP come out when you expose the shooter to unknown distances, unknown target size and time pressure. Run a match where your snaps and movers appear at random distance and are of random size, and then there will be an advantage to running FFP (if the user is trained to use it and not trying to run it like an SFP scope). The advantage will be speed of engagement under stress.
With an FFP scope, you use the reticle for everything. There is no thinking about how many inches/cm your miss is at whatever distance and what that translates into MOA or mils, it's unnecessary. Doing math in your head disappears (except for ranging). Math takes time, and doing it under pressure is prone to error. When your reticle is always true, you just use it to measure a miss (take a guess and intentionally shoot at something that allows you to see the hit if you have to: dirt, water, a concrete wall, etc... field expedient sighter). How big the target is, what the distance is, what your magnification is at... none of that matters. Your reticle tells you how much the correction is. One shot gives you all of the information you need to dial in for a specific distance without knowing what that distance or target size is, if you want to engaging multiple targets at that distance. And no, you don't need a sled or sandbag for this of you're proficient at marksmanship.
When your reticle is always true and in the same units as your dope, you can use it like a BDC reticle at any magnification where you can see it. The christmas tree reticle in some of the new 1-8x are designed specifically for this. The reticle is usable for this at ~5x of higher. Doable now in SR type optics because 1-6x(or 8x or 10x) is now achievable. The 4x limit had nothing do with being "tactical", it was a technological limitation. It was the highest magnification you could get to while still maintaining a ~1x low end that was useful for stuff like clearing rooms. FFP also has an advantage here. It is desirable that the cross hairs disappear at 1x, and that only the illuminated dot remains (like an Aimpoint).
Using the scope in this manner has become the norm with precision rifle optics, the vast majority of new high-end tactical high-powered scopes are now FFP with a reticle that is usable like a BDC reticle if the user chooses not to dial in the distance (snap targets at multiple distances). The usefulness of those features carry over to SR type optics and that is why they were specifically asked for by the US SF community when they asked Leupold to create the 1.1-8x CQBSS. It wasn't an accident that the scope is FFP with a Horus reticle.
Yes, you can do these as well with an SFP scope, but only at one magnification setting, which is usually the highest, and not always ideal. There is also a good chance of getting burned by having it at the wrong setting under stress.
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No advantage in the moving target matches. They are also canned... people just memorize a linear lead and make small adjustments, in the same way they will rely on the known distance and know target dimension to make their corrections. There is a small advantage in real-world movers though.
The thing about movers is that there is a distinct advantage to dealing with the lead as an angular measurement vs. a linear one.
Here is a charts that show the required target lead in inches for you typical 308 175 SMK load:
It's what you would expect: the faster the target is going and the further away it is, the more lead is needed. The movers are typically going at 1-1.5 MPH in the matches.
Here what it looks like if you convert those leads to mils:
Notice that for a given target speed, the lead in mils stays almost constant over a large distance. That is something that can be taken advantages of.
The thing you need to realize is that since it is an angle, differences in value make less of a difference at closer distances than they do at longer ones. So, if you wanted to use a single lead value for a particular target speed over a large distance, it makes sense to choose one from one of the farther distances.
Lets say we used the following values for different target speeds over the the entire 100-500 yard range:
If we predicted the target speed accurately (like reading wind, it can be done with practice) and did our tracking or trapping properly, we would get the following lead errors:
These are pretty small, and if everything else was done correctly (wind call, hold, etc...) and the load was accurate, they would result in a hit. This works for any caliber, and the shorter the flight time of the bullet, the less error there will be and the larger the range of distance this will work over.
This is what the 6mm Crusader that I have been shooting this summer looks like:
Leads in inches:
Lead in mils:
Lead table that I use over distance, and the resulting errors:
Note that there is less error than the 308 load because of the reduced flight time. The shorter the time-of-flight (ToF), the longer the distance it works over, and the smaller the error is over a given distance. 223 falls in between the two...
The advantage to using the angular lead method is that your solution table looks like this:
versus this:
Its one dimensional vs two and is far easier to memorize and use since you only need to consider one thing: target speed. With a good reticle it can be done accurately, and in an FFP scope, you can do it at any magnification, which means you can keep the magnification set to a mid-range magnification and still be able to just shoulder it and start firing in a pinch.
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Most will be using their SFP scope at its true mildot magnification anyway no? In doing so, their SFP scope might be advantageous as it gives a smaller crosshair. The only advantage I know to FFP is when one moves away from lane shooting, and need a wide field of view sometimes, and high detail observation others.
Are some running into this with the SR matches as is? Are there some variations in SR where people are doing movers close enough in that they are backing their scope power off? Or are some running such high magnification that they need to back the power off?
Maybe there is something I am missing in a FFP scope.
Are some running into this with the SR matches as is? Are there some variations in SR where people are doing movers close enough in that they are backing their scope power off? Or are some running such high magnification that they need to back the power off?
Maybe there is something I am missing in a FFP scope.
There is no significant advantage to FFP in an SR match, the advantages are in real-world use. You would see some of them in some tactical matches in the US where they aren't limited to only engaging targets one distance at a time the way we are, and where time is factored into the score the way it is in IPSC/IDPA.
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I said that it is not an advantage in the match itself since you are always dealing with the same specific situations (target speed and distance) and that people can just use a linear lead, not that I didn't like it or didn't use it. I DO use the reticle for leads on movers because when I train, I train to aquire a skill, not to just deal with one or a few specific situations that are presented in a match. Using the reticle (vs. a linear lead) is a better way to do it if you want to train to be able to deal with movers beyond the ones you see in the match.
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This thread has diverged considerably from it's original intent. The discussion regarding SR matches and equipment has been moved here:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?878047-SR-equipment-discussion
This thread is to stay on the topic of optics that could be used in service rifle matches.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?878047-SR-equipment-discussion
This thread is to stay on the topic of optics that could be used in service rifle matches.
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Canadian eh!
Regular
I saw it at the sportsmans show and agree it looks really good. This will be a very solid choice when it is available. I was surprised how much longer it was in comparison to the 2.5-10x44. Not that it is long but I suspected they would be the same length just thinner with the 32 vs. 44 objective.
Wish I had not bought the SFP 44 scope, but I am not going to change it out, at least this season.
Sluggo_m14
CGN Regular
- Location
- State of Disbelief
Anyone obtain or try the 2.5-10x FFP PST yet to give a review?
Hey "Canadian eh"....I just started CQB. First match was in Kingston April 20th. Awsome time! The scope I run is a Vortex..2x7 At 2 power, I run it like a red dot! I shoot both eyes open, so it works perfectly for CQB. But now saying that, Ive talked to alot of guys, that cant run both eyes open with a scope. So I would suggest you try it first. When I get a chance to shoot out further, (300 yards) I power it up to 7 times, and Im on all day. The vortex cost me about $250..I think. Excellent scope for the price! It worked great. Also we got hard driving snow, rain, and hail, all the same day and it had no affect of my sight picture! Another reason I went for the scope over a red dot type sights, was that I dont have to worrry about my optics failing. I was the only one that shot a scope that day, and was a bit worried how I would stack up againts the other more expensive (way expensive) optics. I finished first place. I think Ill stick with my Vortex.I am thinking I may need a bit more magnification for those 500 metre targets......
Site sponsor Tactical Products Canada, has the Vortex 2.5-10 FFP scopes in. I was able to pick one up with an MRAD reticle. Nice piece of glass but I've only really been able to look at things up to 100 yards at the range. The illuminated reticle is really nice for when it gets a little darker outside and the target background is also dark, it makes the reticle pop nicely. With the FFP at close ranges and zoom turned down, all of the hash marks and numbers essentially turn into a basic crosshair with no visible markings. I'm just waiting for a new barrel to come in before I start load development and zeroing at 300 yards in preparation for Service and Precision.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I just got my paws on the new Sightron SIII 1-7 LRIRMOA scope.
It is FREAKING AWESOME Optically. Last years scope was great. This year, it is even better.
The 1X is a true 1X and little to no distortion when panning.
The 7X gives an apparent mag of at least 10X - you can read license plates at over 300yds. I am resolving grout lines on a chimney at over 700yds.
Yes, I am a dealer so some will consider my opinion bias... Well, as a shooter I am blown away. I am trying to get a S&B short Dot to compare with... Yes, that is how confident I am of the glass.
There is nothing I have seen under $2k that even comes close.
The reticle is in MOA and a picket fence reticle. This agrees with the turrents and should help with fast hold off on movers. Very easy to compensate for elevation now with varying loads cause you just need to know the MOA drop not try and match some random hash mark.
If you are looking for a MOA/MOA scope, take a look if you can. It is SFP but that just means more precise aiming at longer distances while retaining a great sight picture for up close - still can aim at my shoes while holding the scope.
All the scope from my first order sold out and I know these are going to be very very very happy owners. Getting more and hopefully, there are more to get.
I am keeping mine for sure and it will be going on my AR Service Rifle as it gets built this year.
Enjoy...
Jerry
PS - a bit of insider info but the FFP Sightrons are coming... PM or Email
It is FREAKING AWESOME Optically. Last years scope was great. This year, it is even better.
The 1X is a true 1X and little to no distortion when panning.
The 7X gives an apparent mag of at least 10X - you can read license plates at over 300yds. I am resolving grout lines on a chimney at over 700yds.
Yes, I am a dealer so some will consider my opinion bias... Well, as a shooter I am blown away. I am trying to get a S&B short Dot to compare with... Yes, that is how confident I am of the glass.
There is nothing I have seen under $2k that even comes close.
The reticle is in MOA and a picket fence reticle. This agrees with the turrents and should help with fast hold off on movers. Very easy to compensate for elevation now with varying loads cause you just need to know the MOA drop not try and match some random hash mark.
If you are looking for a MOA/MOA scope, take a look if you can. It is SFP but that just means more precise aiming at longer distances while retaining a great sight picture for up close - still can aim at my shoes while holding the scope.
All the scope from my first order sold out and I know these are going to be very very very happy owners. Getting more and hopefully, there are more to get.
I am keeping mine for sure and it will be going on my AR Service Rifle as it gets built this year.
Enjoy...
Jerry
PS - a bit of insider info but the FFP Sightrons are coming... PM or Email
