over sized jacketed Photos added #13

WhelanLad

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Location
Australia AU
so i remember seeing somewhere on the internet , maybe Mr weatherby? stuck bigger an bigger projetiles in a certain calibre until it either had drama feeding or shootin /apart etc.

can anyone source me on this please? ... or school me on it.

yeah, theres not alot of tolerances from what is Recommended to use, eg, use .308 in a .30-06-

but say your .30-06 ? or 300wsm ? for whatever reason from No stock to low stock- you had to use a larger diameter projectile, if you were to keep the charge down as you increased diameter, and as long as the chamber allowed the diameter to feed, close bolt.... is there a workable tolerance say ?? .002 ? .003 ?


what ya say?

its late an im thinking
 
ext links to some fodder

It's common to have 7.62x39 ammo that measures .311 but run it through a .308 diameter bored rifle. If you look that up you'll find some threads and info about it. I was looking it up because I happen to have some .311 bullets and am thinking about running them through my 30-06. What I found as a result of the research I did was that the increase in diameter doesn't raise pressure much, and that the difference in bearing surface plays a more significant role in pressure differences.

Hope this helps.

Bazoo //// end quote


from here
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sh...ersize-bullet-rules-do-they-apply-to-jacketed
 
I have personally witnessed 8x57 mauser cartridges being fired through 30-06 chambered rifles by people that should know better, with no visible affect or damage to the rifle. Likely because of the very generous ''freebore'' condition.

Look up PO Ackley's experiments on trying to blow up different bolt action receivers. PO did tests on just about every known and easily obtainable bolt action receiver to personally verify at what pressure levels they would fail or cease to be functional.

The strongest action he could find at the time was the M38, Japanese Arisaka, chambered for the 6.5x51 Jap.

No matter which powder he used in the cartridges, he couldn't get the Arisaka receiver to KaBoom.

So he decided that he would recut the chamber using a 30-06 reamer and leave the bore 6.5mm

Starting with a standard load, generating 47000 psi, with 150 grain bullets, he fired several rounds through the rifle, with no visible damage or malfunction. The bullet just swaged down to the diameter of the bore and went on its merry way down range.

He became quite frustrated with this as the experiment continued well beyond what should have been a safe range of pressures into KaBoom territory.

Finally, he used a 200 grain bullet, over a compressed charge of the 2400 Alliant powder available at the time and finally got some destructive results.

Even then, after having to remove the barrel to be able to open the bolt, as the brass had flowed around the lugs during firing and siezed things up, the receiver and bolt were undamaged and were eventually used for a rifle build.

The Arisaka was the only receiver this happened with. None of the others even approached this strength or durability level.

Back in the day, when money was tight and components were often difficult to access or even get shipped to the small town I lived in, I loaded up and used bullets anywhere from .3075 to .323 diameter in my 30-06 rifle (P17 Enfield) with a mid range load from the Lyman and Hornady manuals, printed in 1967, without any noticeable issues.

The only reason I didn't get to use larger diameter bullets, is they wouldn't fit in the chamber.

No, I'm not advocating that anyone do this with any of the firearms they have on hand, no matter how desperate.

I'm just giving you my personal experience in a rifle that PO Ackley proved during his destruction testing, wasn't any stronger than any of its counterparts at the time, even though popular opinion said it was.

I knew an old Elk hunter, living on a ranch just outside of a small city in British Columbia, called Cranbrook, that bought a P17 when they were being sold off for $5, new in grease, along with a crate of surplus 7.92x57 ammo made by Winchester for the Besa machine guns.

He used that rifle, with that ammunition for over 50 years, to shoot the Elk that were ripping up his haystacks and raising hell in his back yard, between the barn and the house. None of his shots were over 50 yards, and all were in the boiler room.

I would guess he was very careful of where he took those Elk, because the FMJ bullets would just keep right on going after passing through the animal.

He complained about the recoil to me, so I loaded up a few hundred 180 grain, round nose bullets, to a very sedate 2400fps and they shot within a inch or so of POA with the original iron sights on the rifle at the distances he was likely to shoot.

He shot a couple of those rounds and went back to the surplus 8x57 he still had left.

Well, he's gone now to his rest and I cleaned up that rifle for his Grand Daughter, who he was very close to. It resides in the safe and will likely never see the light of day again, but it's still very serviceable.
 
Look up PO Ackley's experiments on trying to blow up different bolt action receivers. PO did tests on just about every known and easily obtainable bolt action receiver to personally verify at what pressure levels they would fail or cease to be functional.

The strongest action he could find at the time was the M38, Japanese Arisaka, chambered for the 6.5x51 Jap.

No matter which powder he used in the cartridges, he couldn't get the Arisaka receiver to KaBoom.

So he decided that he would recut the chamber using a 30-06 reamer and leave the bore 6.5mm

Starting with a standard load, generating 47000 psi, with 150 grain bullets, he fired several rounds through the rifle, with no visible damage or malfunction. The bullet just swaged down to the diameter of the bore and went on its merry way down range.

He became quite frustrated with this as the experiment continued well beyond what should have been a safe range of pressures into KaBoom territory.

Finally, he used a 200 grain bullet, over a compressed charge of the 2400 Alliant powder available at the time and finally got some destructive results.

Even then, after having to remove the barrel to be able to open the bolt, as the brass had flowed around the lugs during firing and siezed things up, the receiver and bolt were undamaged and were eventually used for a rifle build.

The Arisaka was the only receiver this happened with. None of the others even approached this strength or durability level. .

I had also heard a story about some doofus shooting the wrong caliber in a rifle with the result being a very long, swaged down bullet exited the muzzle with no damage to the rifle.

I tried to blow up an old Lee Enfield that some idiot had drilled numerous holes in trying to mount a scope. We took the rifle away from the guy as "unsafe" so I went all medieval on the thing. The maximum load we ran through that rifle was a 303 case full to the top with Red Dot and then the 174gr bullet pushed into the case neck. I was SHOCKED the thing didn't blow up. The action was done as the case head split and allowed 100,000 psi gas to flow back into the action. It blew the magazine out, bowed the action sides and cracked the bolt head off, but the thing stayed in one piece.
 
You should read some of PO Ackley's stuff before putting him in the ''doofus" category.

As for my experiments back in the day??? I never approached anything near what would be maximum pressures for the action I was shooting them from.

After reading about Ackley's experiment with the Arisaka, I convinced a friend to lend me his 30-06 reamer and duplicated the Ackley experiment on a Fair grade only, scrubbed mum, Arisaka 6.5 mm carbine with a sewer pipe bore. My results were exactly the same and that receiver was later rebarreled and chambered with a 25 caliber barrel for the 257 Roberts.

To my knowledge, that rifle is still taking White Tails in Saskatchewan and has been doing so for over 45 years.
 
I'm not sure if this helps, but USA made SAAMI spec "8mm Mauser" ammunition is loaded with an in-between size bullet at quite low pressure, so that they can be fired in old obsolete .318" bore 8x57J rifles, without blowing them up. The Germans just load proper modern .323" diameter bullets in full power loads and mark them 8x57JS and advise shooters not to fire them in 8x57J bores. They also make the primer black on the modern loads to help newbies distinguish the bigger diameter bullet / load.
So apparently a couple thousandths of an inch oversize can be fired down a smaller bore in an older rifle even with American lawyers watching, IF pressures aren't too high.
 
Another thought, I once had a batch of .303 bullets, 311" or .312" diameter. I had a .308 rifle and no .303. So I lubed them up and ran them through a Lee .308" size die mounted in my press. Swaged down just fine to .3085" if I recall correctly after a slight amount of "spring back". No worries, no drama. Shot OK. Pressure was same-same.
 
Slug your barrel and find the max groove diameter. That will be your base line, and you can then subtract a thou or two for your max bullet diameter. I know Barnes at one time sold bullets with different jacket thicknesses, but stopped sometime back. - dan

.3135 ive still got the little slug :)
 
Another thought, I once had a batch of .303 bullets, 311" or .312" diameter. I had a .308 rifle and no .303. So I lubed them up and ran them through a Lee .308" size die mounted in my press. Swaged down just fine to .3085" if I recall correctly after a slight amount of "spring back". No worries, no drama. Shot OK. Pressure was same-same.

yep i think i might look into the lee? swage die thingy an see how a few go- very interesting about PO tests.

she'll be right i rekon :)

thanks
 
I have personally witnessed 8x57 mauser cartridges being fired through 30-06 chambered rifles by people that should know better, with no visible affect or damage to the rifle. Likely because of the very generous ''freebore'' condition.

Look up PO Ackley's experiments on trying to blow up different bolt action receivers. PO did tests on just about every known and easily obtainable bolt action receiver to personally verify at what pressure levels they would fail or cease to be functional.

The strongest action he could find at the time was the M38, Japanese Arisaka, chambered for the 6.5x51 Jap.

No matter which powder he used in the cartridges, he couldn't get the Arisaka receiver to KaBoom.

So he decided that he would recut the chamber using a 30-06 reamer and leave the bore 6.5mm

Starting with a standard load, generating 47000 psi, with 150 grain bullets, he fired several rounds through the rifle, with no visible damage or malfunction. The bullet just swaged down to the diameter of the bore and went on its merry way down range.

He became quite frustrated with this as the experiment continued well beyond what should have been a safe range of pressures into KaBoom territory.

Finally, he used a 200 grain bullet, over a compressed charge of the 2400 Alliant powder available at the time and finally got some destructive results.

Even then, after having to remove the barrel to be able to open the bolt, as the brass had flowed around the lugs during firing and siezed things up, the receiver and bolt were undamaged and were eventually used for a rifle build.

The Arisaka was the only receiver this happened with. None of the others even approached this strength or durability level.

Back in the day, when money was tight and components were often difficult to access or even get shipped to the small town I lived in, I loaded up and used bullets anywhere from .3075 to .323 diameter in my 30-06 rifle (P17 Enfield) with a mid range load from the Lyman and Hornady manuals, printed in 1967, without any noticeable issues.

The only reason I didn't get to use larger diameter bullets, is they wouldn't fit in the chamber.

No, I'm not advocating that anyone do this with any of the firearms they have on hand, no matter how desperate.

I'm just giving you my personal experience in a rifle that PO Ackley proved during his destruction testing, wasn't any stronger than any of its counterparts at the time, even though popular opinion said it was.

I knew an old Elk hunter, living on a ranch just outside of a small city in British Columbia, called Cranbrook, that bought a P17 when they were being sold off for $5, new in grease, along with a crate of surplus 7.92x57 ammo made by Winchester for the Besa machine guns.

He used that rifle, with that ammunition for over 50 years, to shoot the Elk that were ripping up his haystacks and raising hell in his back yard, between the barn and the house. None of his shots were over 50 yards, and all were in the boiler room.

I would guess he was very careful of where he took those Elk, because the FMJ bullets would just keep right on going after passing through the animal.

He complained about the recoil to me, so I loaded up a few hundred 180 grain, round nose bullets, to a very sedate 2400fps and they shot within a inch or so of POA with the original iron sights on the rifle at the distances he was likely to shoot.

He shot a couple of those rounds and went back to the surplus 8x57 he still had left.

Well, he's gone now to his rest and I cleaned up that rifle for his Grand Daughter, who he was very close to. It resides in the safe and will likely never see the light of day again, but it's still very serviceable.

cheers Bearhunter, ill have to sus out this P.O book one day! interesting stuff.

yeah, so ive heard about the 8mm u speak off too, thats what peaked my interests here-

ive been discussing this with a member , off site, the conclusion seems to be, with a fired case from that rifle, see if "new" or "oversized" projectile fits inside of brass- from there we see the chamber spec- the neck/throat/freebore /rifling then comes into play next-
mostly seems that as long as free bore or case neck with fat bullet fits, chambers.... itl fire. :D

thanks again
 
some specifications for yas.
this is whats working an i can see why when laid out like this.
IQGE8l4.jpg
prijectile

some data to run over- inside an outside of case necks / brands and my combo loaded.

the SB brass only for .311/.312 standard stuff.... using RP for the larger stuff..... coincidently that projectile is the 'right' size for my slug AKA barrel.

1t8wkfd.jpg



how to replicate lol-
 
if anyones good at maths, what do ya rekon me largest .31?? would be to fit in this lol.

proberly need to cast the chamber yeah?

Chamber cast will give you a lot of information regarding the depth of your rifling and neck dimensions, but I would slug the bore still to get a good idea of the max dimensions you have to work with. - dan
 
"slug the bore" versus cerrosafe cast - I have done both - several times - what I think happens - if you plug the bore an inch past start of lands, or an inch into muzzle and do cerrosafe casting - you get the actual diameter there. When you push a soft slug up the bore - what comes out is the "smallest" diameter that it squeezed through - I satisfied myself on my barrels that there is no guarantee that they are same diameter one end to the other - some are - many are not - with micrometer most definitely can measure different diameters - and I do not think it is cleaning rod wear at the muzzle - I think that wears away at the top of the riflings - has to be pretty nasty to see the wear down into the groove diameter - which is what you get as the "highs" on a slug or a casting. I do not have the tooling to measure "odd number" rifling / grooves - so like 5 grooves on some 303 British barrels - so their diameters always a bit of mystery to me.
 
"slug the bore" versus cerrosafe cast - I have done both - several times - what I think happens - if you plug the bore an inch past start of lands, or an inch into muzzle and do cerrosafe casting - you get the actual diameter there. When you push a soft slug up the bore - what comes out is the "smallest" diameter that it squeezed through - I satisfied myself on my barrels that there is no guarantee that they are same diameter one end to the other - some are - many are not - with micrometer most definitely can measure different diameters - and I do not think it is cleaning rod wear at the muzzle - I think that wears away at the top of the riflings - has to be pretty nasty to see the wear down into the groove diameter - which is what you get as the "highs" on a slug or a casting. I do not have the tooling to measure "odd number" rifling / grooves - so like 5 grooves on some 303 British barrels - so their diameters always a bit of mystery to me.

Personally I prefer to know the smallest diameter. Gives me the minimum number to work from. - dan
 
Following from writings by Veral Smith - and I know he was mostly about lead cast bullets - not jacketed bullets - but he was quite concerned about getting bullet matched to the throat (or free-bore) diameter - is several that I measured where that area is larger than the groove diameter. An extreme case that I have - so was probably a Husqvarna M46 - from cerrosafe cast, 285 grain gas checked bullet is about 6 mm out of case mouth - before it contacts the leade (the rifling) - so that one has some distance where neither the case neck, nor rifling, is "steering" that bullet - will rely on close fit between bullet and throat for that distance. From somewhere, I got the impression that if bullet "tilts" before it engages the rifling, it will NOT "straighten out" on the trip down the barrel - will emerge from muzzle still "tilted". I do not know if there is a difference for that - cast bullets versus jacketed bullets.
 
Following from writings by Veral Smith - and I know he was mostly about lead cast bullets - not jacketed bullets - but he was quite concerned about getting bullet matched to the throat (or free-bore) diameter - is several that I measured where that area is larger than the groove diameter. An extreme case that I have - so was probably a Husqvarna M46 - from cerrosafe cast, 285 grain gas checked bullet is about 6 mm out of case mouth - before it contacts the leade (the rifling) - so that one has some distance where neither the case neck, nor rifling, is "steering" that bullet - will rely on close fit between bullet and throat for that distance. From somewhere, I got the impression that if bullet "tilts" before it engages the rifling, it will NOT "straighten out" on the trip down the barrel - will emerge from muzzle still "tilted". I do not know if there is a difference for that - cast bullets versus jacketed bullets.

Freebore is either a blessing or a curse, depending on the particular rifle.

Tikkas, Sakos and Husqvarnas notoriously had a lot of excess freebore for all sorts of reasons.

Milsurps tended to have oversized diameters in their freebore sections but the commercial offerings usually have freebore diameters that are only a few thousandths of an inch total overall diameter larger than the bullet diameters, which is why those rifles tend to be such accurate shooters and not fussy about ammunition being fed. Their chambers are also on the small side of mean spec.

It's quite common for hand loaders to seat their bullets out to where they will have to be lightly forced into the leades of their rifles. This keeps everything aligned with the axis of the chamber/bore, while retaining the base of the bullet into the neck and can really take up any discrepencies in neck tension.

Back in the early days of cartridge loading, LONG NECKS were considered to be a must so that the base of the bullets were still being held while the ogive engaged the leade. It was widely considered that accuracy would not be achieved if this condition wasn't adhered to.

When I have purchase a reamer, I will often send it in to a shop to be reground to just a few thousandths of an inch over minimum spec, over the entire length, to keep tolerances as tight as possible. I mostly have to use small base dies when reloading for these rifles. I only use those reamers for personal rifles or make sure anyone wanting a chamber cut with one of them knows that some commercial loads may not fit into those chambers.
 
Last edited:
WL, in that Ruger #1, you have, it seems to be the same as the few I've had an opportunity to peruse and shoot.

The owners of those rifles complained bitterly about getting them to shoot consistently into groups that they would feel comfortable hunting with out to 300 meters.

Both those rifles had .314 diameter bores after we slugged them with a cast lead bullet, from the rear, which started out at .325 diameter.

I don't know why Ruger decided to build those rifles with such large bore diameters? It certainly doesn't make a lot of sense to me, considering the vast majority of the bullets available today are anywhere from .308 to .312, with most being .310/.311.

Just to be clear, I really wish that someone would make good bullets with exposed cores at the base, which would properly obturate/expand into the rifling for a decent seal, within a couple of inches of the leade. Then we wouldn't be having this chat.

My advice to you is to use the largest diameter bullets that you have on hand, keeping practicality in mind and load them so their ogives are being lightly forced into the leade. This will at least keep them straight and aligned with the axis of the bore when they are fired and will aid them to enter aligned.

The 303Brit case is blessed with a long neck and you should be able to seat those bullets out far enough to do this.

If that isn't possible, neck size only and keep those specific case with that rifle.

I've done this with 303 chambered rifles as well as a few chambered for 30-40 Krag and even with undersized bullets, as long as they were fed straight into the leade, they shot acceptably well for hunting purposes.

I don't recall the freebore on the rifles I checked, but I was able to seat heavy 180 grain bullets out far enough to be very close to or touching the leades in both of them.
 
Back
Top Bottom