'Oversized' Cast Bullets

jdschwass

Member
Rating - 100%
5   0   0
Hey- I wasn't sure if this was a cast bullet topic or reloading topic, but I am looking for some advice on reloading my 303 Brit.

I have a No4 Mk1 that I have been shooting for years. I developed a cast load for it that did fairly well, but it is not fast at all. Only years later did I think to slug the bore, which I think may explain why I couldn't get the velocity up.
My bore slugged at .312. My cast bullets sized and lubed are about the same size. Not ideal.

I decided to try some 'as cast' bullets without sizing. I think my mould is a Lee .312, 180gr. When reloading the un-sized bullet, I found that the neck of the case would flare out or bulge slightly. It was also not a consistently centered bulge, making the loaded rounds inconsistent, and sometimes not useable. I do use a neck flaring die to ensure I don't shave the bullet as it is being seated.

I have read about people sizing down 8mm bullets, lapping out their moulds, or their sizing die, etc. Point being, it's clear that people are able to match their bullet to their bore... so how do you do this without deforming the cases? My bore isn't nearly as big as others I have read about.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
There is a thought - posted in other threads - that the actual bore diameter is not so critical, as is the "ball seat" diameter - that is the area between end of the space for the case neck and before the rifling starts - want to have your cast bullet snug fit to that diameter. May work out as .001" or .002" larger than the bore, but is fit in the ball seat that is important. I believe Veral Smith wrote about that - he was very big proponent of "lead packing" to know what is that ball seat diameter - exactly.

For "oversize" - I had a Lee push-through sizer that was nominally .314" - similar idea to what you are thinking - something to run an "as cast" bullet through, but to ensure that it was "round". I currently have a Lee .311" push-through - I intend to roll it with emory cloth on a rod - to open that up to .312" or so - not real sure how I will control that - sort of try and try kind of process - no real "coming back" if I go too far ... I will be interested to hear how you make out with your set up.
 
Thanks for the replies. When a case goes into the sizing die, the ball pushes the case neck outwards, while the die pushes it in. So even if I had a larger expander ball, would the actual die not force it back down to the "correct" size? Or do you perform this is more than one step?

I have tried the powder coating before, long story, but I found it to be very inconsistent. I have buddies that have mastered the art, but i really like the Lee LA for simplicity.

I was also thinking about lapping out my Lee bullet sizer. Not only does it allow you to ensure the bullet is round, but also allows a gas check to be crimped on.
 
Sizing die - I have most brands - pretty sure the expander ball goes in, when case on the way up, and does not touch the fired case neck. Then the die scrunches the case neck too small. Then, when case is withdrawn, that expander ball swages the neck back out to correct diameter - usually .001" or .002" smaller than the actual bullet - is formed and sized from the inside - so there is some "neck tension" when the bullet gets seated. Is supposed to be a way to accommodate varying thickness in case walls - one case to another or one side of a case to the other side - the "hole" is formed by the expander ball on the way out, and any variation in case neck thickness appears on outside surface when the bullet is seated. I suppose all could be altered to use only a roll crimp in cast bullets into a roll crimp groove on the bullet - no neck tension at all - would need a larger than "normal" diameter expander ball, though - as mentioned above. I have never tried to do that.

There is another sequence - I have done so when forming 8x57 brass into 9.3x57 cases - I set the expander out further than normal - that expander opens up the case neck on the way up - I do NOT run the case all the way into the die - so the large expander just goes in and then back out, without the die crunching down the neck.
 
Last edited:
Sizing die - I have most brands - pretty sure the expander ball goes in, when case on the way up, and does not touch the fired case neck. Then the die scrunches the case neck too small, Then, when case is withdrawn, that expander ball swages the neck back to correct diameter - usually a .001 or .002 smaller than the actual bullet to there is some "neck tension" when the bullet gets seated. I suppose all could be altered to use only a roll crimp in cast bullets - would need a larger than "normal" diameter expander ball, though - as mentioned above.

Of course... makes perfect sense when I actually think about it. So it sounds like that should solve it. Just trying to think if I have any other dies on hand that I could take from...

I also need to do some more research on this ball seat diameter... I have heard this discussed before; makes a lot of sense. I have experienced the 'perfect fit' on some rifles, but never actually measured.
 
Measuring ball seat - I have never done that "lead packing" - I do not know how to do it - but I have done cerrosafe casting several times - melts less temperature than boiling water - is actually how I melt it - in a "double boiler" on an electric hot plate - so, plug the bore with a normal cleaning patch - pour in some liquid (melted) cerrosafe - it shrinks slightly when it solidifies - so usually is easy to push out with cleaning rod when solid - then it swells - at 60 minutes from set-up, it will be exact size that it was formed in - that is when you measure it - it continues to swell so some hours or days later that cerrosafe will be larger than the form that it came out of. Cerrosafe can be used over and over again, until you spill enough of it on the floor and have to get more - I was getting one pound bars of it from Brownells - a bit more careful now and have not had to get more for a few years.
 
Measuring ball seat - I have never done that "lead packing" - I do not know how to do it - but I have done cerrosafe casting several times - melts less temperature than boiling water - is actually how I melt it - in a "double boiler" on an electric hot plate - so, plug the bore with a normal cleaning patch - pour in some liquid (melted) cerrosafe - it shrinks slightly when it solidifies - so usually is easy to push out with cleaning rod when solid - then it swells - at 60 minutes from set-up, it will be exact size that it was formed in - that is when you measure it - it continues to swell so some hours or days later that cerrosafe will be larger than the form that it came out of. Cerrosafe can be used over and over again, until you spill enough of it on the floor and have to get more - I was getting one pound bars of it from Brownells - a bit more careful now and have not had to get more for a few years.

Brilliant... I have never seen that stuff, but it makes perfect sense. I will definitely pick some up. I really appreciate the info.
Cheers.
 
It was back in the nineties, I believe, that Al Miller wrote an article in Handloader magazine, where he fired unsized, or minimum sized cast bullets in about 5 different milsurp rifles. In every case, he got better accuracy from unsized bullets. This was before I read about Veral Smith's theory on fitting the bullet to match the ball seat.

NOE makes a die that is part of their sizing system, that let's you taper the bullet nose to fit the ball seat. I've only used it a little, but found it cumbersome , but I suspect that's due more to my inexperience with it than a fault of the system. Powder coating has disrupted my casting thoughts for the past few years. I've only been casting for 57 years,so I'm still learning.
 
Cerrosafe casts - I ended up with some pretty grim looking ones at first - re-read the instructions that came with the stuff - it does make a difference to warm up the chamber / barrel with a hot air gun - hair dryer, whatever - get the metal to feel "hot" to your fingers - all the way around - that is still much less than 200 F, so can not be affecting the metal or soft solder at all. Also very much worth your while to get the casting area very clean and "de-coppered" if there is any of that residue in there from previous firing. What I find great about it, is if the casting comes out with holes, voids and gaps, then just re-melt it and do the casting again. Might take a bit of "tinkering" or "fine tune" your process - how fast or how slow that you dribble in that liquid, but seems to work fine, sooner or later. I tend to measure diameters with an outside micrometer - I am not real sure that the callipers that are only accurate to .001" are "good enough" for this purpose - may be they are?

Measuring - is a thing some find confusing - the $16 Canadian Tire calliper might read out four decimal places on its display, but the box says the unit is only accurate to three places - so sometimes user is fooling self using the four decimal places as "gospel". None of the several callipers that I have came with a calibration standard - but the Mitutoyo micrometer did - I believe that is important to know for sure that your number is "real". I find it challenging to measure to four places - not unusual to measure same thing three times and get three different numbers - is about the user's "feel" and "touch" and probably "experience". Is nice to use one tool to measure something at work bench - then go to lathe and use a different measuring device, and have the part that you made fit to the first one!!!
 
Last edited:
Since no one has suggested it, you might try a Lyman M die. They are intended to expand cases necks for cast bullet seating without bullet damage. Don't know if they offer one in the size you want but a call to them should find out.
 
Since no one has suggested it, you might try a Lyman M die. They are intended to expand cases necks for cast bullet seating without bullet damage. Don't know if they offer one in the size you want but a call to them should find out.

Thanks- I actually have a Lee neck expanding die that I used for that exact purpose. I assume that they do the same thing? It does help to prevent shaving of lead, but it only flares the mouth, rather than expand the entire neck.

I don't want to get off topic on my own thread, but what do people do with a straight walled case? I shoot my cast 45-70 loads all the time, but in a modern rifle. If the bullet was larger than the chamber, but fit the bore, then it would be interesting trying to get it into battery. Perhaps that's not an issue... just got me thinking.

Cheers.
 
Lyman "M" die not exactly like a Lee flare - "M" die makes like an expanded "cup" in the case mouth - can set a bullet in there and does not tip over. The Lee tool makes a "flare" - a taper - so is alleged that your seating process still needs to get bullet going in "straight" with the Lee tool, whereas the "M" die already has the bullet sitting "straight".

Chamber larger/smaller than groove diameter - if I understand what you are asking - was a thing in some revolvers - chamber throat in the revolver "cylinder" was smaller than the barrel groove diameter - either have the cylinder throats reamed out, or use soft enough bullets that would "bump up" - as in, increase in diameter, after they passed through the cylinder throat.
 
Lyman "M" die not exactly like a Lee flare - "M" die makes like an expanded "cup" in the case mouth - can set a bullet in there and does not tip over. The Lee tool makes a "flare" - a taper - so is alleged that your seating process still needs to get bullet going in "straight" with the Lee tool, whereas the "M" die already has the bullet sitting "straight".

Chamber larger/smaller than groove diameter - if I understand what you are asking - was a thing in some revolvers - chamber throat in the revolver "cylinder" was smaller than the barrel groove diameter - either have the cylinder throats reamed out, or use soft enough bullets that would "bump up" - as in, increase in diameter, after they passed through the cylinder throat.

Interesting- I will look into this "M" die... sounds about right.

I guess a revolver and a straight walled rifle would be the same concept. If bore is worn, or just oversize due to military production imperfection, then it could exceed the diameter of the actual chamber. In the case of a necked cartridge, even if the bullet is significantly larger than the nominal bore size, it will still fit through the chamber and into position. Where as a straight walled case, say 45-70, could have a "45" caliber chamber with a bore that requires something larger to be accurate. I already see slight expansion of my 45-70 cases, but they still fit. But a in a straight walled case, that might not happen. I guess making the chamber larger would work, but would require fire formed brass to fit tightly.
Just my hypothetical mind at work :)

Cheers.
 
"hypothetical mind" - is about the throat, not the rest of the chamber behind that. When casting bullets, some writings about importance of fitting to the "ball seat" - is that portion of the barrel - ahead of the cut for case neck walls, but before the rifling starts - when it was done in Weatherby type cartridges, I think it was refered to as the "free bore" section. So does not matter if straight wall or necked case - is desirable that the bullet fits snuggly in the "ball seat" area.

There should / has to be some room for case and neck to expand when fired - is not a tight fit before firing or after firing - case expands - grabs onto chamber walls - then relaxes after peak pressure - the case neck can relax and "let go" of the bullet - a good test is whether you can freely slip a bullet into the mouth of a fired case - should go in with virtually no resistance - shows that your bullet diameter, plus neck wall thickness, plus chamber neck area diameter are all working together as they should.
 
Interesting- I will look into this "M" die... sounds about right.

M dies are the Wal-mart level approach to giving your cast bullets their best start in any caliber. They are really only intended to make the theoretical cast bullet of that caliber slip into the case neck better. I used them for years, still have them, for some rifles still use them with cast.

There are (at least) two better approaches to match your cast bullet to the case neck you're going to seat it in.
  1. A Lee Collet die with a collet made to your spec by Lee's custom shop to obtain the amount of interference fit you desire.
  2. The previously mentioned neck expanding dies offered by NOE. You can buy them in graduations of .001" - again, to get the amount of interference fit you are looking for.
To get best accuracy in any rifle with cast bullets, it is no theory that matching bullet profile to the ball seat/leade is where you'll find your best accuracy for more rifles. You will not find many serious competitors in CBA benchrest competition who don't use either custom moulds or custom sizing to get the closest fit possible between the seated bullet and the ball seat/leade of their rifle's chamber. At the high end, they use a swage to swage the cast bullet in a replica of their chamber before seating the bullet. Some of the old Schuetzen match shooters actually pushed the bullet into the ball seat/leade prior to loading the charged case - essentially swaging the bullet to a perfect fit prior to firing.

If you spend a few minutes thinking about it, if your seated bullet has space around it for the time that it moves from the case neck until it jams into and seals the bore while pressure builds behind it, during that time the expanding burning gases have an opportunity to blow past the base and sides of the bullet at high temperatures and pressures. Which leads to gas cutting. Which also leads to depositing bits of lead down the barrel.

Fitting your bullets to your rifles' ball seate/leade is not rocket science. And once you've determined the proper fit, it is no harder to replicate with your cast bullets from that point onward.

First you need to determine your ball seat/leade dimensions by either doing a pound cast or using cerrosafe as described earlier. Then you determine the dimensions of that cast. I, like most who do this, look for the measurements in the chamber just in front of where the neck begins of the case portion of the chamber (bullet diameter + thickness of brass cass neck), through to where you have the bore diameter where the rifling first shows itself to be fully formed - if you plan on using a bore riding design, the front bore riding portion of your mould has to be about a thou less than the bore diameter it will be sitting within.

Then choose the design you think will work for you within those dimensions - and fit as best possible into the dimensions you now have for your chamber. I look for a design where the base of the bullet when seated in the chamber will close to the junction of the shoulder and neck, rather than intruding into the case space. My bullets are just touching the lands when the gas checked base is right at where the shoulder transitions to the neck. Take care of the little things and the big things will sort themselves out...

At this point, I find the maximum diameter for your cast bullet shank where, when seated in your brass of choice, the loaded round just chambers. You'll know this point because if the bullets are slightly bigger in diameter, they necks are too large with the bullet seated and they can either not be chambered, or require some force to fully seat them in the chamber. Not being a competitor in CBA any longer, I want rounds that smoothly chamber without any drag.

For the little extra price that custom moulds such as those from Accurate Moulds cost, in my opinion they are a no brainer. His moulds will cast to a thou or less at all parts of the casting to the dimensions you specified to him with your order. Second advantage: you can have him cut two (or three) different cavities to your specifications for not much more money: three different designs to try for not much more than the cost of one. Once I find the design that delivers the best accuracy, that first mould with those different cavities gets sold, and a new one with the dimensions of the best design gets ordered. Really no different than money spent testing jacketed bullet designs from Sierra, Hornady, Barnes, etc to find the best accuracy - and not really any more expensive.

I don't obsess with a perfect interference fit because you're getting close to the point of turning case necks for perfectly uniform dimensions at this point. I can't be bothered; in even the best of Lee Enfields, modern hunting rifles, etc, the error budget of the rifle is much greater than what is lost because you don't have that last .0005" of fit in the chamber.

Once you've figured out the amount of seating with the amount of sizing, you just replicate that as you size your bullets as you always would going forward (if you don't just shoot them as cast).

I prefer the NOE neck expanding system for a couple of reasons:

First, they are relatively inexpensive and are used inserted into a universal Lee die.

Second, that means buying a few in .001" increments so that you can see if differences in sizing have an accuracy sweet spot is cheap. I start out with the Lee Collet die to get the most out of my brass, but their custom sized collets made to your specs cost more than the original die. I am not rich enough to be able to buy custom collets from Lee in .001" graduations.

NOE also offers a very cool bullet sizing system where, once again, the individual dies are relatively inexpensive and can be purchased in .001" increments. You can also choose to just size the base, or just the nose (i.e. a bore riding design that is a hair too big as cast), or you can go full crazy and size the base and then the front portion. My SAECO lubrisizer doesn't do much other than square the bases and crimp on the gas checks these days for some calibers, in particular the Long Branch Lee Enfield and a Winchester 1895 in 30 US that has a .303 British size land and grooves barrel.

Again, matching the cast bullet profile to the chamber/ball seate/leade profile is not all that hard. It's a one time pain in the arse of getting a casting, then measuring dimensions along the casting for the portions where the seated bullet will be, and then picking a bullet and figuring out how you're going to go about getting a tight fit. After you figure that out and what sizing you'll have to do and how much... you just replicate that set up with each batch of cast bullets you cast and then seat.
 
I like the Lyman 2 step expanders used in the M die, Buffalo Arms makes custom sized ones, on a .002 split vs NOE's .004 split on the neck vs mouth size, but will make .001 to .004 splits if asked. I've has situations where depending on the lead blend, I've needed to size the nose to throat dia and the body needed to be left alone, but was .002 larger than the throat. Had to open the case mouth, but wanted the neck tension, M dies work great for that.
IF you can get a mould that tosses the bullet the proper size with the proper lead blend, that does not need sizing, that's nirvana, and it can be tricky to achieve. Soft bullets will deform noses if seated in too tight a neck, sometimes if they have to be sized too much as well. And sometimes gascheck fit gets dicy with some moulds and some lead blends. Lead blends result in as much as .002 difference from a Lyman #2 blend, in either direction.
 
Back
Top Bottom