P1 vs P38

Gefreiter, at the time I damaged those pistols it was not done intentionally.

Also at that time I had access to as many of all three as I wanted. I had worked part time for Alan Lever and he had hundreds of them on hand for a long time. I'm willing to bet I disassembled and cleaned thousands of of all of them. The P35s were mostly NIB with their coat of factory preservative. They were in relatively short supply.

P08s and P38s were another story. They were there in every condition and variation imaginable. Alan was always on the lookout for interesting variations though and wanted the interesting pieces set aside. Full matching 100% condition, Navy marks, Dutch marks, Artillery models and snail drums etc. Most of those were set aside for serious collectors and yes, he had a list of who to call to move them. They didn't stick around for long. He was good though and if we wanted the odd piece, he would sell it to us at a reduced price. Not enough to make a business out of though. I was young and under the impression that politicians would never take our firearms away form us and only a few nut jobs were anti gun. I also thought that milsurp would last forever and be pennies on the dollar.

In 1972, I did a cleaning job for Robinson's in Victoria. They had a box about a meter square, lined with aluminum foil, sealed at the seams. It was packed full of P08s in their issue holsters with whatever accessories they had with them when packed in the crate. After cramming as many into the crate as they could, they filled it with hot cosmoline. It had to be very hot and liquid because every nook, cranny, holster and pistol was filled to capacity with the stuff. My pay for cleaning the pistols was $5/hour for 40 hours plus the P08 of my choice from the crate. Good money for those days. The trouble was, the pistols had to be immersed in hot water then individually taken down, bathed in varsol and reassembled. They had to be done one pistol at a time so that nothing that was all matching got mixed up. Most of course had been FTRed during their lives in service and had several different dates and manufacturers.

None of the holsters were salvageable. The leather would tear from the slightest touch. The loading/take down tools were mostly there and a couple even had cleaning rods. All had extra mags. I don't remember but I thing there were only four out of 200 pistols that were matching and in decent condition. Needles to say, the job took me 7x12 hour days to complete. The manager was true to his word though even though he thought I should have finished the job sooner. He paid me as agreed and I came away with a matching S42 with a spare mag and take down tool. I was exhausted but happy.

The pistol I ruined, was a BYf 44 with matte finish. Very nice it was to. I managed to get a spare toggle assembly from International Firearms in Montreal but of course the pistol was no longer matching and I got rid of it. A few years later, I got married and bought/refurbished a house. I sold of just about everything I had to pay for the refit.

By the time the marriage was over and I could afford to pick up some nice pieces again, I had lost many contacts and of course the surplus supply had dried up.

To bad for me.
 
You lucky bear, you were literally soaking in history.

Your post is also very interesting from a Health Safety point of view. I sometimes wonder if my passion for arms is not going to eventually cause me hand skin troubles, with all my handling, cleaning and oiling of my firearms, though not 7/12 like you. I know I should use gloves, and I have a box in the same room, but it just doesn't come to me (like making love with a condom...).

I have this flannel rag, brownish by now, soaked with Hope's NO. 9, that I've been tucking in and out of a zip-lok bag since 1985, no kidding. Just luuuv the smell of it!

I'm a metallurgist by education, so I just got to touch the flesh, metal I mean.:D

Any health comments on solvents or Cosmoline?

God I love this forum, exchanging real lived memories like this, feels like a "ligue du vieux poêle" (litt.: league of old stove).
 
Gefreiter, when I worked for Lever, the conditions weren't that bad. We didn't wear masks but we did wear coats, impervious bibs and black rubber gloves with long cuffs. I also wore gum boots. That stuff the guns float in is insidious. Some of those crates that came in there were never opened from the day they left the warehouse in Sudan or Egypt. The case of pistols I cleaned for Robison's, was a pain in the butt for the owner as well. Customs had allowed the case in, but it needed to be opened in their presence. Their attitude was a lot different then as well. Of course because of the packing none of the pistols had been registered. They took the word of the owner that he would clean everything up and give them the serial numbers and models. He did, he kept very careful records of every pistol. I had to wait a couple of months to get my pistol. To his credit, it was the one I picked. Great guy to work for. Honest as the day is long.

I've always had an aversion to the fumes from strong cleaners especially ammonia or caustic based. I turned down 3x12hr days/year of OT where I worked, so that I didn't have to work in the fumes when they brought cleaners in every year to clean the accumulated oily dust from the overhead equipment and building structure. That was over $100/hour.

When I did those cleaning jobs on firearmx, dirty jobs that most people wouldn't do, I had a lot of lee way. I worked outside as much as possible and at a minimum if inside, with doors and windows open and a fan either taking away the fumes or blowing fresh air on me. To this day I hate the smell of Hoppes and Varsol. My shop is set up with double doors so that I can turn on the fan to circulate the air in and out.

I am a Lymphoma survivor for 12 years now. I am pretty much certain that cancer was caused by airborne solvents of one sort or another. That stuff, just isn't good for you. If you know anyone that works in it for extended time periods, they seldom look healthy. Many times, they insist on smoking while working in such environments as well, compounding the effects.

you're right, I was immersed in history. Lever didn't just sell firearms. He had so much stuff it made your head spin. Ships chandelry items, dating back to the 1700s. Flags, uniforms, every kind of kit in every kind of condition. Lots of stuff the public never saw. There were lots of reasons for this. Much of it was junk or just parts. Hardly any of it was thrown away. Hundreds of lamps, holsters, eating utensils. You name it and I'm sure he had it. I wonder what happened to most of that stuff? There must have been at least a dozen sailing ships figureheads in the shop and basement/warehouse.
 
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The P38 was produced after the war as well, I think up to 1959, after that came the P1, if you want to buy a P38 wartime, here is an indication about the value, although US prices tend to be higher than here.

http://p38.50webs.com/markings.html

As to the newer ones, you can get a P1 for $299++ and a P38 for $339++ (tax and shipping) from dealers in refurb condition.
 
Great history share guys.

I think the last firearm i bought from Lever was either a S&W 629-4, or a Marlin 336TS, in 1986. Always liked their selection and prices. And considering it was all the way across the continent ,the deliveries were faster than from Ontario, like Lovetts in Kitchener.:)

Except for the Prohib issue and the buying up of alot of the good milsurps, there's still alot of nice things avaliable across the country at various dealers. The good old days are not done yet!!:canadaFlag:
 
Gefreiter, at the time I damaged those pistols it was not done intentionally.

Also at that time I had access to as many of all three as I wanted. I had worked part time for Alan Lever and he had hundreds of them on hand for a long time. I'm willing to bet I disassembled and cleaned thousands of of all of them. The P35s were mostly NIB with their coat of factory preservative. They were in relatively short supply.

P08s and P38s were another story. They were there in every condition and variation imaginable. Alan was always on the lookout for interesting variations though and wanted the interesting pieces set aside. Full matching 100% condition, Navy marks, Dutch marks, Artillery models and snail drums etc. Most of those were set aside for serious collectors and yes, he had a list of who to call to move them. They didn't stick around for long. He was good though and if we wanted the odd piece, he would sell it to us at a reduced price. Not enough to make a business out of though. I was young and under the impression that politicians would never take our firearms away form us and only a few nut jobs were anti gun. I also thought that milsurp would last forever and be pennies on the dollar.

In 1972, I did a cleaning job for Robinson's in Victoria. They had a box about a meter square, lined with aluminum foil, sealed at the seams. It was packed full of P08s in their issue holsters with whatever accessories they had with them when packed in the crate. After cramming as many into the crate as they could, they filled it with hot cosmoline. It had to be very hot and liquid because every nook, cranny, holster and pistol was filled to capacity with the stuff. My pay for cleaning the pistols was $5/hour for 40 hours plus the P08 of my choice from the crate. Good money for those days. The trouble was, the pistols had to be immersed in hot water then individually taken down, bathed in varsol and reassembled. They had to be done one pistol at a time so that nothing that was all matching got mixed up. Most of course had been FTRed during their lives in service and had several different dates and manufacturers.

None of the holsters were salvageable. The leather would tear from the slightest touch. The loading/take down tools were mostly there and a couple even had cleaning rods. All had extra mags. I don't remember but I thing there were only four out of 200 pistols that were matching and in decent condition. Needles to say, the job took me 7x12 hour days to complete. The manager was true to his word though even though he thought I should have finished the job sooner. He paid me as agreed and I came away with a matching S42 with a spare mag and take down tool. I was exhausted but happy.

The pistol I ruined, was a BYf 44 with matte finish. Very nice it was to. I managed to get a spare toggle assembly from International Firearms in Montreal but of course the pistol was no longer matching and I got rid of it. A few years later, I got married and bought/refurbished a house. I sold of just about everything I had to pay for the refit.

By the time the marriage was over and I could afford to pick up some nice pieces again, I had lost many contacts and of course the surplus supply had dried up.

To bad for me.

I`m going to have to take a cold shower now. :p
 
I examined a bunch of these guns when I imported a lot. The P1s had heavier slides, and they had three dot sights too. There were some transition guns which had some features but not all.
My experience running a few of the P1s on a commercial range was that they were quite fragile and slides or barrels cracked after only a few thousand rounds. I would be cautious about doing much serious shooting with one.
 
I examined a bunch of these guns when I imported a lot. The P1s had heavier slides, and they had three dot sights too. There were some transition guns which had some features but not all.
My experience running a few of the P1s on a commercial range was that they were quite fragile and slides or barrels cracked after only a few thousand rounds. I would be cautious about doing much serious shooting with one.

What kind of ammo? was it hot?
 
Fragile Aluminum P1 frame

I examined a bunch of these guns when I imported a lot. The P1s had heavier slides, and they had three dot sights too. There were some transition guns which had some features but not all.
My experience running a few of the P1s on a commercial range was that they were quite fragile and slides or barrels cracked after only a few thousand rounds. I would be cautious about doing much serious shooting with one.

That's correct. Is was a design flaw. The aluminum frames started cracking near the area where the barrel hits the frame to come to a stop, during recoil. This was fixed by Walther by adding a steel pin through the high stress area, as I read. But I have not seen a P1 with such a pin repair. Being aware of this, I check for cracks every time I clean it.

This is what makes a P1 less interesting if you are going to shoot a lot with it. But hey, at the price they come, can't really complain.
 
If you guys want the straight information on the P38 vs P1 to to the P38 forum. There is so much misinformation about the P1/P38 that it would take days to relate it here.

On the 9 mm ammunition subject. Awhile back some surplus 9 mm ammunition was sold in the USA that was 1908's British submachine ammo. Will have to search to get the correct scoop on it.

This from FirearmsID.com :
9 X 19 MM Hirtenberger AG

WARNING: Austrian ammunition maker Hirtenberger AG has put the word out concerning a quantity of its 9x19 mm ammunition that is "unique for use in any handgun." According to a November 7 BATF Industry News release. "The ammunition was loaded to produce pressures far in excess of that intended for use in handguns...This ammunition should not be fired." The ammunition was produced for the British Ministry of Defense from 1990 through 1992 for use in submachine guns "under adverse conditions" and carries the "L7A1" designation. While BATF is unaware of this ammunition being imported into the U.S., the maker advises that up to 12 million rounds were sold recently on the world surplus market.

The ammunition covered by this warning can be identified by the following headstamps:

12 o’clock position: HP

3 o’clock position: 90, 91, or 92

6 o’clock position: L7A1

9 o’clock position: a cross within a circle

For additional information contact BATF at (202) 927-8320.

Source: BATF Bulletin, November 7, 1996

American Rifleman, January 1997; page 6

IAA Journal, Jan./Feb. 1997; page 4\

You may also want to check out this YouTube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klfidhz9Pzk
 
That's correct. Is was a design flaw. The aluminum frames started cracking near the area where the barrel hits the frame to come to a stop, during recoil. This was fixed by Walther by adding a steel pin through the high stress area, as I read. But I have not seen a P1 with such a pin repair. Being aware of this, I check for cracks every time I clean it.

This is what makes a P1 less interesting if you are going to shoot a lot with it. But hey, at the price they come, can't really complain.

So the P1 does not have redesign to accomodate the jump to an alloy frame versus original steel? This is exactly where most frames start to crack on high round count aluminum 9mms in the past, with hot/heavy bullet weight, loads.

Maybe If i get another P-38 it will be steel.
 
A bit off the topic in referring to cosmoline. Was assigned to uncrate aome M1 carbines. When we got the lid off the box, it was a SOLID block of cosmoline! Had to use steam hoses next to the mess hall to melt it out.
 
So the P1 does not have redesign to accommodate the jump to an alloy frame versus original steel? This is exactly where most frames start to crack on high round count aluminum 9mms in the past, with hot/heavy bullet weight, loads.

Maybe If i get another P-38 it will be steel.

Definitely, you want to get a steel one.

No re-design in the sense that nothing was changed to accommodate the reinforcing pin, I beleive, as like I said, I never saw one or a picture thereof. I understood Walther just selected the best place to bore a whole right across the receiver frame (that would be a few mm behind the round tip of the feed ramp in the bottom picture).

I have three P.38 and the P1. (Want my cyq #2 ?) View, assembled, from left to right: P1, cyq #1, cyq #2 and byf (Mauser):

FourP38assembledR.jpg



Even under close examination, I can't see any physical difference between the P1 and the the three real McCoys around the area where the reinforcing pin should be on the P1. Notice the radical difference in colour of metal: the P1 (top) has a kind of bluish varnish/paint; if you knock it, it tends to chip leaving bare aluminum visible:

FourP38receiverstopviewR.jpg


The bottom one is the Mauser (byf) and for that one, as a metallurgist by education, the mere sight of the metal colour/texture gives me a rush of endorphin. This byf is not matched: slide and barrel assembly is one #, receiver down is another #. Still, I beleive essential things are matched because this one is the tightest grouping of the four: about 2" at 20y (my reloads). So here's a lesson: if you find a nice pistol, one which upon examination looks sound to you, don't pass on the deal because it's unmatched, unless you are really looking for true collectible. My byf even had the "relief piece" (# 29 in the blowout sketch) defective. This piece is depressed by the decocking lever and releases the hammer back to DA condition (forward rest position). That helped me close the deal at a very interesting price (I knew exactly what was wrong). The part, I got from Numrich for a $ or so.

There you are guys, like I said at the beginning of this tread, the P.38 is truly an outstanding design, 75 years later it's still state of the art in terms of safety and reliability. Maybe you believe this bs about sabotage, cheap quality due to slave labour, bla bla, bla, I don't: just look at the byf 44, I forgot to mention, that's for 1944, bombs raining every night with a clear sky. They prayed for rain...

Footnote: got a Walther PP/PPK/S owner's manual in the mail today for my still en route/recently purchased war era PP (oh, thank you so much Dennis...). I had a look at the blowup sketch of the PP: gee! it's a scaled down P.38 with a fixed barrel. All design features of the P.38 apprear to have been already on the PP, which precedes it by 4 or 5 years. My preferred Conceal & Carry (if that was allowed) was my Browning BDA in .380 Auto up to now. That may very well change. Anyway, don't like the thought of waking around with a piece, would feel like holding a lightning conductor on a golf course: even on a sunny day the weather can cage very fast... Just my own opinion.

One last subject: recoil. Don't forget guys, the laws of physics are implacable: the lighter your weapon (or the heavier your bullet and powder charge) the stronger the recoil will be. So why bother with saving a few hundred grams, even if you have to carry it around all day, unless you are in the fourth week of your hunger strike.

So yes, you definitely want a steel one, ein schweres Stahlwaffe!
 
For those who might be interested I have an article in pdf format entitled "M39 ans P38 Autos Square Off In 11,000 Torture Test" by George C. Nonte from "Shooting Times" March 1973. For those of you who think the alloy P1/P38's won't last you should read it. Contact me if you would like a copy.
 
War of quotes challenge

Necat omnes! Deus suos agnoscet.[/QUOTE said:
I'm flabbergasted! Se habla Latin? Do you know who said that ? I've known the line (in French) and been quoting it for 30 years? I know who, and I'm just teasing to see if you know, and the exact context.

Answer in next reply...

See if you knew this one and who said it:

"I've always said that if Great Britain were defeated in war, I hope we should find a Hitler to lead us back to our rightful position among the nations."

I will withhold the date and name of Newspaper, not to make it too easy for you.

Unser Ehre heisst Treue. Gefreiter.
 
Thanks for that Gefreiter. I've only seen a couple of P1s and I was under the impression that they had all been modified to stop the "dreaded rail crack". Thanks for clearing that up.
 
"Kill them all! Let God sort them out."(see third line of signature). And yes I know when it was said, who said it, to whom it was said and why he said it. But can't spell any of it.

The PRIMARY reason the hex rod was fitted to the frame was as a wear surface for the locking block to cam up on and was placed in a SPECIFIC location in the frame to accomplish that purpose. I take exception to the use of the term "the three real McCoys". First cyq and byf may be P38's but they ain't Walther P38's. Second, P1's are P38's just as a rose by any other name would smell the same and the were made by Walther.

The P1 frame are anodized.
 
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Of guns and roses

"Kill them all! Let God sort them out."(see third line of signature). And yes I know when it was said, who said it, to whom it was said and why he said it. But can't spell any of it.

The PRIMARY reason the hex rod was fitted to the frame was as a wear surface for the locking block to cam up on. I take exception to the use of the term "the three real McCoys". First cyq and byf may be P38's but they ain't Walther P38's. Second, P1's are P38's just as a rose by any other name would smell the same and the were made by Walther.

The P1 frame are anodized.

OK. so we differ on the the definition of a true P.38. May I submit to you, respectfully, that if you want to be picky, your should learn to write the venerable pistol's name correctly: not P30, nor P-38 but P.38, as stamped on the left side of each (unaltered) P.38 I've had the privilege to meet or see pictures thereof.

Not sure I would call Clausewitz a "philosopher". I prefer "military theorist/tactician".

Secondly, the P.38 is a pistol specified, tested and adopted by the German army (Heer) in 1938. There was never any intention to have it manufactured exclusively by Walther, as for most military firearm order in any army, at least the ones that are going to require vast numbers to be produced. But the Germans, with their mind set on the manufacture of a good reliable firearm, did not go as far as requiring that all parts be interchangeable as for example, the M1 Carbine of the US.

Let's expand a bit on this example of the M1 Carbine. You know the names of the initial manufacturers I'm sure, so just consider this: the M1 Carb has a little over 50 different parts; none of the initial contractors manufactured all the parts, Underwood had the most, 38 if my memory is correct. So when my attention was initially drawn to the M1 Carb that is now in my gun safe, I was puzzled that the seller would mention "all matching parts, even the stock". Find the error... Additionally the rear peep sight was missing, replaced by a brazed-in square leaf just forward of the breech. As it turned out, this was a "Bavarian" M1 Carbine, of which the story can be read by simple Google search. The point is, the Germans, even defeated, had their pride and their Grundlichkeit (rationalism or thoroughness) was still alive and kicking. Any weapon, however gracefully given by the conqueror, had first to go to the armoury, per standard procedure. Each carbine was properly checked, Waffenamt stamped (not sure it wasn't still called Waffenamt) and all the parts ("even the stock") were stamped with a unique s/n (same as receiver, or last digits thereof). I find it amusing (a wink of destiny) that the US design M1 Carbine I landed was a "Bavarian" version, having been refurbished by the Germans themselves, me a collector with such a passion (did you notice?) for anything mechanical (or musical) aus Deutschland. Needless to say this carbine shoots well within the surface (< 25%) of the standard US Ordnance test target for the M1 Carbine.

So I will take exception to your exception: P.38s made by any factory and stamped with the Waffenamt mark, are true P.38 IMO, with one notable exception, the late war/early post war stuff gathered in rush as a last ditch effort (April 45 to 46 or 47). And Mauser being Mauser (and today H&K) your will never convince me that a "byf" P.38 is not a highly desirable collectible. This being said, your purism is welcome and appropriate for the Heerespistol (HP) manufactured before the adoption by the Wehrmacht. Not surprising then that the HP calls a much steeper price even in so so condition.

St-Dominique (remember the Signing Nun's "Dominique-nique-nique...") said that, to Simon de Monfort, the millitary commander, just before storming a town full of "Albigeois", those intolerable heretics.

My quote is from Sir Winston Churchill, published in The Times in 1938, as reported by Carl Dönitz in his Memoirs, page 305.

Not sure I would call Clausewitz a "philosopher". More a "theorist/tactician" IMO.
 
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