P14 in .22LR - Need a good gunsmith!

[skirsons]

"...What about every Lee-Enfield trainer?..." They're not conversions.

Oh no? That's news to me. Not all of them were but if you try to say that they are all not conversions then you'd be wrong. And they are ALL full size rifles that are built like full size rifles.

Your comment was also irrelevant and not appreciated.

Please will someone recommend a gunsmith that might take on a more creative project like this?

 

[Slash5]

I was just looking at the pictures at SurplusRifle.
Does the bolt handle have enough lockup in the reciever to be used? I don't have a P14 to check. There doesn't appear to be a safety lug.
After reading Tiriaq's comments, I wonder about using a sacrificial .22 and cut the bolt head off rear of the extractors. Leave a stub on the bolt head.
Cut the front off the P14's bolt and match them up, either threading them together or press fit with Locktite. Then makeup the chamber insert from the rear of the sacrificial .22's barrel. This will give you the extractor cutout's etc ready made. A lot less machining - and easy to machine. A pin shouldn't be any problem.

The big problem is no locking lugs. If the bolt handle has enough engagement, that's no problem as it's the way most .22's work. Headspacing on the bolt handle shouldn't be a problem since it's being re-headspaced with the chamber insert anyways.

 

[skirsons]

I was thinking the offset barrel insert is still the best idea. I am not sure if the handle has the lockup necessary, but it certainly looks like it does. You're right; after all, .22s don't need much in that department.

 

[tiriaq]

The root of the bolt handle could no doubt be fitted to act as a locking lug. An additional thought on using an existing .22 bolthead - it would probably work better if that part of the bolt didn't rotate. Think about how most .22 bolt rifles are set up, with a non-rotating head, and a rotating rear with the locking mechanism. Bolthead would need a guidelug to run in the left boltway.
If it were desired to use an offset bore, to allow the centrefire firing pin to strike the rim, it would be easy enough from a machining point of view to centredrill the barrel blank offset before turning the barrel on centres. This would produce the desired offset. The bore would be angled in the blank, and this would create its own issues.
If the barrel face is in the same position as the .303 barrel face, the rifle would be very difficult to load, unless the receiver ring were dramatically cut away.
Fortunately, no mention has been made of a repeating action, which is just as well.
The three designs that would be worth studying are the M-2 Springfield, the Israeli Mauser conversion, and the Remington 40X .22. All three use a receiver originally made, or proportionnned, for centrefire.
I suppose such a conversion could be done, if enough time and effort were committed. At a reasonable hourly rate, though, the cost would be substantial. A second one would be a lot less expensive, once a workable system was developed.

 

[skirsons]

Well I would be willing to pay substantially for this conversion, of course. I would still like to see it kept as simple as possible. Cutting the receiver away seems to be a reasonable compromise to perhaps retain the original bolt with an offset barrel. If I remember correctly there are two locking lugs on the P14 bolt like a Mauser. That way the cut in the receiver could be made like the Israeli mauser not to affect the lugs.

 

[tiriaq]

The lugs travel in the horizontal, lock in the vertical. A loading port could be milled into the receiver ring without affecting the RH locking lug's seat. Receiver would have to be annealed for milling, but that would be irrelevant for a .22, and with the cutaway no one would ever try to return the rifle to centrefire.
I am not sure if an offcentre bore would be easier than offsetting the firing pin.
With a rotating bolthead, there would be a couple of options for the extractor. If the extractor is fixed to the bolt, it would have to rotate 90 degrees around the head every time the bolt was cycled. Or, perhaps the original extractor could be lengthened to catch the .22 rim.
Anyone have a closeup photo of the breeching and extractor setup of an Israeli or Belgian conversion?

 

[Slash5]

 

[tiriaq]

Thanks. Very interesting. Looks as if the replacement barrel is sleeved into the shank of the original barrel. The .22 barrel projects back through the inner receiver ring collar. Quite the cuts on the barrel face to clear the twin extractors as the bolt rotates. Upper lug seat is gone, lower is the functional lock, I'm assuming that the added lug positions the bolt nose.

 

[jethunter]

I was wondering if there was a gunsmith out there who could convert a P14 rifle, perhaps an old sportered one, into .22LR. The most complex problem is the bolt and so I don't know if there is anyone out there with the talent to do this.

Any ideas?

I have an FN Mauser that the Israelis converted to a .22 LR trainer. Its a single shot of course. There's major work to the bolt required, and a piece of metal soddered into the top of the magazine well to act as a loading platform for the .22 rimfire cartridge, and .22 bbl installed. Trigger and sear on the bolt were original, but i have since installed a Timney. It doesn't look like a terribly comples job for a smith who is good on a lathe, but it would take a lot of time.

 

[skirsons]

What about using the .303 sub-caliber inserts used by the British for enfield trainers. The chamber remained 303 and the barrel was sleeved only to the chamber. The 22 cartridge is put into the insert and the insert is cycled as if it was a round. I heard there are versions of the insert that do not require an offset firing pin.

This conversion would be easy and would be a repeater!

 

[tiriaq]

Two ways of firing the rimfire in the conveyor with the original firing pin: offset the chamber in the conveyor so the firing pin will hit the rim. Downside is that the bullet has to change direction when it reaches the .22 bore. Not conducive to accuracy. Or, the .22 cartridge is seated into the conveyor, and a little cylinder fits behind it, has a little ridge to act as a rimfire firing pin. CF pin hits this piece, it fires the .22. This is how the .22/.223, etc. adapters work. Downside is that it makes the conveyors slower to reload.
The cost to install a liner in a .303 barrel would not be too great. Making the .22/.303 conveyors would be time consuming ($ each), unless someone were to write the program for a CNC lathe.
Downside to the whole project would be that accuracy might be poor - the bullet would have a long run through the smoothbore of the conveyor before it reached the rifling in the liner.
There were removable .22 conversion kits made for centrefire rifles. A sleeve was secured at the muzzle with a knurled nut. Sleeve was supported at the breech by a section that looked like a cartridge case. A converted spare bolt was used. Basic rifle and bolt were not permanently altered.