P14 volley sights..how common?
- Thread starter icehunter121
- Start date
It depends on whether or not you can find a "fat boy" stock to go along with it. Those sights were phased out during the completion of the runs.
The front volley sights are available from Numrich, or at least they were. You will also need some other parts to get it to fit on your rifle.
If you go to the Numrich site, use their parts blow out diagrams to check what's needed.
Maybe get in touch with Potashminer and his contacts, or Louthepou.
I haven't checked but I don't think Boyd's makes the "fat boy" version, simply because the Pattern 17 stocks/receivers didn't come with those sights and those stocks will fit both models.
You might be able to find a "fat boy" stock on the EE or out of Europe.
The front volley sights are available from Numrich, or at least they were. You will also need some other parts to get it to fit on your rifle.
If you go to the Numrich site, use their parts blow out diagrams to check what's needed.
Maybe get in touch with Potashminer and his contacts, or Louthepou.
I haven't checked but I don't think Boyd's makes the "fat boy" version, simply because the Pattern 17 stocks/receivers didn't come with those sights and those stocks will fit both models.
You might be able to find a "fat boy" stock on the EE or out of Europe.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
OP - "put it back to what it should be" - there were two versions - Mark I and Mark I* - and at least three distinct stages that all are "as it should be" at different times and then each of the three makers - so at least 18 variations of P14, plus those made up as sniper rifles. A couple of us have been trying to figure out each characteristic.
From the factories in USA, the Eddystone often had the "fat boy" stock, Winchester and Remington never used that - so three different styles of stocks, at least, from the factories - all were equipped with the volley sights, as were Britains SMLE's. The one marked front volley sight base that I have is marked "W" on the back - so Winchester production. Should be "R" marked and "E" marked as well.
Corrected as per Charles Stratton book - pages 24, 25 - By Spring 1939, Britain had a program to overhaul their P14's that had been in storage since 1919 - was called Weedon Repair Standard - work was done at a number of British armouries and gun making firms - Stratton lists 10 of them and the identifier codes used - front volley sight arm removed, the spud that it rotated on was ground flat to the base - the base was left in place; rear volley sight arm cut or ground off the P14 base for the bolt stop spring, stocks repaired - in some cases, P14's apparently fitted into M1917 stocks which never had volley sights at all. As per Stratton, about 55% of total P14 production was converted - roughly 677,324 rifles that Britain had. Later, during WWII, Britain had British contractors supplying stocks and other parts - those WWII British made stocks never had any provision for volley sights at all.
So three stages - from the factory, after Weedon Repair Standard and after WWII. All are authentic and "original" - all done by British Army. Only first instance, as they left the three factories, did they have volley sights on them. So far as I know, if front one disabled, then rear one also ground off. Never had one without the other.
We found some pictures of what we think are original WWI British sniper rifles. By far, most of them were never equipped with a scope. They did, however, install a "Fine Adjustable" rear sight - more precise to adjust than the standard rear sight. WWI British sniper was an above average shooter, using an above average rifle (for accuracy) and could make use of the fine adjustments to take "pot shots" at the other guys, often from a vantage point behind their own trenches - once their location identified by the other guys, was typically target by artillery - so a couple shots, then MOVE... Late in WWI - like last several months, some 2,000 P14 sniper rifle were equipped with scopes. Apparently, only the "W" made P14's were ever used as sniper rifles. From pictures, it appears the volley sights were removed when the Fine Sight was installed, but not sure that the pictures that we saw are of authentic or not.
Time is getting away on me - more than a year ago I contacted DS-Solutions in Great Britain - he had three original front volley sight units, and had sent them to a "jobber" to have reproductions made - so the front volley sight arm, the wavy washer that was used and the attaching screw. Those three parts attached to the base and its cross screw within the front stock. I never did follow up to get any. That "W" marked base I have, still has the "spigot" - was not ground off - so a front volley sight could be re-installed. I have another one that has had the spigot ground off flat - so apparently like was done in the Weedon Standard Repair. I have seen "re-built" P14's offered for sale that have had a SMLE front volley sight installed - it is significantly shorter than what the P14's were equipped with.
So as mentioned above - at least two versions of Eddystone stocks were produced, plus the "W" and the "R" - books here by Stratton, Ferris, Skinnerton attempt to identify some of the subtle (and not so subtle) differences between them - best ID of course is the rondel stamped on the right side butt - another Weedon Standard Repair was to remove that round brass disc and insert a wooden plate - often the ID rondel got sanded off at the same time - I have several "sporter" P14 stocks here - hard to tell which might have been Weedon work, or somebody else making a hunting rifle.
So kind of have to "pick" the era, then "pick" the maker and assemble the parts. I have not had much luck in finding original P14 stock and hand guards. Everything kind of hinges on that. Only the first "era" - as from the factory - would have had the volley sights, and the rifles would have been all matching - 4 serial numbers on metal - I have one "E" stock with the serial number in the barrel channel, but other stocks here without. Also, "all matching" likely includes the little maker's mark found on virtually every piece, except coil springs and screws - so likely 40 plus pieces of an "E", "R" or "W" M1917 have, or should have, a little "E", "R" or "W" stamped on them. Then have to read up on the metal finishes - each of those stages may have altered the metal finish, so an original WWI floor plate latch might look different than the same piece after the WWII re-build. All fun!!
From the factories in USA, the Eddystone often had the "fat boy" stock, Winchester and Remington never used that - so three different styles of stocks, at least, from the factories - all were equipped with the volley sights, as were Britains SMLE's. The one marked front volley sight base that I have is marked "W" on the back - so Winchester production. Should be "R" marked and "E" marked as well.
Corrected as per Charles Stratton book - pages 24, 25 - By Spring 1939, Britain had a program to overhaul their P14's that had been in storage since 1919 - was called Weedon Repair Standard - work was done at a number of British armouries and gun making firms - Stratton lists 10 of them and the identifier codes used - front volley sight arm removed, the spud that it rotated on was ground flat to the base - the base was left in place; rear volley sight arm cut or ground off the P14 base for the bolt stop spring, stocks repaired - in some cases, P14's apparently fitted into M1917 stocks which never had volley sights at all. As per Stratton, about 55% of total P14 production was converted - roughly 677,324 rifles that Britain had. Later, during WWII, Britain had British contractors supplying stocks and other parts - those WWII British made stocks never had any provision for volley sights at all.
So three stages - from the factory, after Weedon Repair Standard and after WWII. All are authentic and "original" - all done by British Army. Only first instance, as they left the three factories, did they have volley sights on them. So far as I know, if front one disabled, then rear one also ground off. Never had one without the other.
We found some pictures of what we think are original WWI British sniper rifles. By far, most of them were never equipped with a scope. They did, however, install a "Fine Adjustable" rear sight - more precise to adjust than the standard rear sight. WWI British sniper was an above average shooter, using an above average rifle (for accuracy) and could make use of the fine adjustments to take "pot shots" at the other guys, often from a vantage point behind their own trenches - once their location identified by the other guys, was typically target by artillery - so a couple shots, then MOVE... Late in WWI - like last several months, some 2,000 P14 sniper rifle were equipped with scopes. Apparently, only the "W" made P14's were ever used as sniper rifles. From pictures, it appears the volley sights were removed when the Fine Sight was installed, but not sure that the pictures that we saw are of authentic or not.
Time is getting away on me - more than a year ago I contacted DS-Solutions in Great Britain - he had three original front volley sight units, and had sent them to a "jobber" to have reproductions made - so the front volley sight arm, the wavy washer that was used and the attaching screw. Those three parts attached to the base and its cross screw within the front stock. I never did follow up to get any. That "W" marked base I have, still has the "spigot" - was not ground off - so a front volley sight could be re-installed. I have another one that has had the spigot ground off flat - so apparently like was done in the Weedon Standard Repair. I have seen "re-built" P14's offered for sale that have had a SMLE front volley sight installed - it is significantly shorter than what the P14's were equipped with.
So as mentioned above - at least two versions of Eddystone stocks were produced, plus the "W" and the "R" - books here by Stratton, Ferris, Skinnerton attempt to identify some of the subtle (and not so subtle) differences between them - best ID of course is the rondel stamped on the right side butt - another Weedon Standard Repair was to remove that round brass disc and insert a wooden plate - often the ID rondel got sanded off at the same time - I have several "sporter" P14 stocks here - hard to tell which might have been Weedon work, or somebody else making a hunting rifle.
So kind of have to "pick" the era, then "pick" the maker and assemble the parts. I have not had much luck in finding original P14 stock and hand guards. Everything kind of hinges on that. Only the first "era" - as from the factory - would have had the volley sights, and the rifles would have been all matching - 4 serial numbers on metal - I have one "E" stock with the serial number in the barrel channel, but other stocks here without. Also, "all matching" likely includes the little maker's mark found on virtually every piece, except coil springs and screws - so likely 40 plus pieces of an "E", "R" or "W" M1917 have, or should have, a little "E", "R" or "W" stamped on them. Then have to read up on the metal finishes - each of those stages may have altered the metal finish, so an original WWI floor plate latch might look different than the same piece after the WWII re-build. All fun!!
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- Location
- Western Manitoba
As mentioned above - I have seen them made to "fit" onto P14, but they are not correct - they have significantly shorter legs to them, but same idea.
Only P-14 stock I've ever picked up is from one of the Indian DP rifles. I inletted armourer type repair patches to blank out the semicircular notches from where the pin had been put through the barrel. Used it to restock a barreled action from a sported rifle. It still has the extra wood on the left side related to the sight, although the sight arm itself was removed.
There were a lot of these Indian DP P'14s imported, along with some similarly DP'd Mk. III Rosses. It is my understanding that many of the A-Square rifles were made up using the ex-Indian actions. These stocks do turn up from time to time, left over from when the actions got salvaged. I expect a lot were just discarded.
There were a lot of these Indian DP P'14s imported, along with some similarly DP'd Mk. III Rosses. It is my understanding that many of the A-Square rifles were made up using the ex-Indian actions. These stocks do turn up from time to time, left over from when the actions got salvaged. I expect a lot were just discarded.
So...I need a fat boy stock which is no problem, I can get a repro. I was playing around online last night and found repro front volley sights for around L120.00, sorry I can"t make that squiggly L that is used to define currency from across the big pond. I already have a repro stock complete to put this rifle I have back into military config. and get it out of the sporter stock, so I guess it just depends how many more $$$ I want to spend on it or find another one and build it up in a different military configuration.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
From discussions with others, maybe some misunderstanding what the volley sights were used for. Not meant to actually aim at and hit a thing, although it likely happened. At the time, really senior decision makers in British military would not approve machine guns - likely still dreaming of their own younger days of cavalry charging across a field with lances and drawn sabers - like "real men" would. I am sure it was fun, but was not an effective "thing" by WWI.
In mean time, lower down in hierarchy, had to get stuff done. Was possible in conflicts of the day to see other guys - long ways away - forming up, unloading supplies, etc. So Britain's soldier training involved more ammo than most anyone else - every soldier had to get through the "Mad Minute" - I think that was to hit a generous target, at range, 15 times in 60 seconds. Not get off 15 rounds, but to hit that target 15 times. Started with 5 rounds in magazine - and reloading using 5 round chargers - so minimum of two reloads if you could hit with every round. Then, with the volley sights, could order a group of soldiers - say 10 or 15 guys, to all set their front volley sight to 2,600 yards, and all would be instructed what to aim at - then order to produce, say, 20 rounds rapid fire. This would lay down a "hail" of bullets roughly in the area that the other guys were - some might actually have got hit, but idea was to disrupt what they were doing.
Eventually, the need for machine guns become too obvious - as I understand it, that was why the P14 were made in USA - the Enfield armoury was cranking out Vickers machine guns and had no capacity left over to produce rifles. So, once machine guns became more available to provide that very long range harassing fire, the need for the volley sights on the SMLE and the P14 diminished. Hence the various programs to remove those sights as now being superfluous. USA Military never had that "volley fire" concept, so the M1917 rifles, made in the same factories just a few months after the P14 contracts were finished, did not ever have the volley sights. I am pretty sure the USA military was well into "machine guns", right back to the "Gatling gun" days.
In mean time, lower down in hierarchy, had to get stuff done. Was possible in conflicts of the day to see other guys - long ways away - forming up, unloading supplies, etc. So Britain's soldier training involved more ammo than most anyone else - every soldier had to get through the "Mad Minute" - I think that was to hit a generous target, at range, 15 times in 60 seconds. Not get off 15 rounds, but to hit that target 15 times. Started with 5 rounds in magazine - and reloading using 5 round chargers - so minimum of two reloads if you could hit with every round. Then, with the volley sights, could order a group of soldiers - say 10 or 15 guys, to all set their front volley sight to 2,600 yards, and all would be instructed what to aim at - then order to produce, say, 20 rounds rapid fire. This would lay down a "hail" of bullets roughly in the area that the other guys were - some might actually have got hit, but idea was to disrupt what they were doing.
Eventually, the need for machine guns become too obvious - as I understand it, that was why the P14 were made in USA - the Enfield armoury was cranking out Vickers machine guns and had no capacity left over to produce rifles. So, once machine guns became more available to provide that very long range harassing fire, the need for the volley sights on the SMLE and the P14 diminished. Hence the various programs to remove those sights as now being superfluous. USA Military never had that "volley fire" concept, so the M1917 rifles, made in the same factories just a few months after the P14 contracts were finished, did not ever have the volley sights. I am pretty sure the USA military was well into "machine guns", right back to the "Gatling gun" days.
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- Location
- Western Manitoba
I dislike disagreeing with Bear Hunter, but you only need a "fat boy" stock, if you are trying to re-build that version of the Eddystone P14. Eddystone did not produce all their rifles with that style of stock, and Remington and Winchester never did use that style at all. But all new P14's were equipped with volley sights, from the factory. To "re-build" to be "as new" - have to kind of pick one style and one maker.
The P14 production was one of first where private companies making guns for British military - virtually all others, up to that time, were made in a British military arsenal. The separate contracts to "E", "W" and "R" did not include blueprints or tolerances - from Stratton book, each factory got a couple P14 rifles that had been made at Enfield and contracted to "make more like this". Each of those three were in competition with the other - not a lot of evidence of co-operation, especially by Winchester - they each got paid per unit approved by and delivered to Britain. Seems to have been closer association between "R" and "E" - Eddystone was owned by Remington, but had a "separate" contract.
As a result many parts would not interchange - at least not without filing and grinding. Not going to "drop in" a "W" magazine box into an "E" or and "R" rifle, for example. The British fix was eventually to adopt them as 3 different rifles - in 1920's, all the designation in British arms were changed, so ended up with No.3 E, No.3 R and No.3 W. Three different rifles, three different supply lines, three different listing of replacement parts. Some parts would interchange, but no where near all. British Army Armourers had lists of which parts could be used in another makers rifle - a real "mess" compared to most other militaries.
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Can you clarify something please. You said that Rem. and Win. never used a fat boy stock ...is that correct? So therefore, would only eddystone use the volley sights? Or am I misunderstanding things here?
Icehunter121: They all had volley sights when new. Personally I wouldn't bother trying to install them on rifles that have been altered to later configuration because, likely, other things have also been altered and it may be very apparent that the volley sights are out of place. They're only original once but perfectly fine if correct for their final in-service configuration.
milsurpo
milsurpo
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- Western Manitoba
Milsurpo has it exactly correct. Once rifle went through Weedon Repair Standard, was no way to re-install the front volley sight arm - the spigot had been ground off the front volley sight base. And the rear volley sight arm had been sawed or ground off the spring seat. The WWII British re-builds had no provision for the volley sight bases. So, only "new" from factory configuration had the volley sights on them And all three makers did that - "E", "R" and "W" - but only "E" used the "fat boy" stocks, and only for part of their production.
This is a P14 front volley sight base with the spigot still intact. Should be able to see the yardage indicators around the base. FYI, when in use, for longest ranges, the volley sight arm is pointed DOWN - well below the stock - the rifle is pointed way upwards.
This is the rear side of that front base, with it's screw - note that stud - so there is a through hole through the stock for the screw, and a second hole for the stud - on the left side of the stock - does not go through - that stud was to prevent the base from being able to rotate on the stock. If you look carefully - between the attaching screw and the stud, on the back of the plate, might see a "W" - this part was on a Winchester P14.
And this is the rear volley sight on that bolt stop box spring rest - Weedon Repair Standard would grind that arm off there - on this one, the "E" is on the arm, which explains when I have not found many of those spring seats with a makers mark for P14 - several for M1917, but they never had the volley sight arm... That rifle happens to be all "E" to the last little bit - but I have not found an appropriate full stock for it. The "E" stock that it is in has been cut down to make a hunting gun - that stock has the same serial number in barrel channel, as in on the receiver... That stock also has no finger grooves - never did - so I know it was a "fat boy" stock made by Eddystone, before somebody started whittling away on it, which goes with the rest of the rifle, besides the serial numbers...
This is a P14 front volley sight base with the spigot still intact. Should be able to see the yardage indicators around the base. FYI, when in use, for longest ranges, the volley sight arm is pointed DOWN - well below the stock - the rifle is pointed way upwards.
This is the rear side of that front base, with it's screw - note that stud - so there is a through hole through the stock for the screw, and a second hole for the stud - on the left side of the stock - does not go through - that stud was to prevent the base from being able to rotate on the stock. If you look carefully - between the attaching screw and the stud, on the back of the plate, might see a "W" - this part was on a Winchester P14.
And this is the rear volley sight on that bolt stop box spring rest - Weedon Repair Standard would grind that arm off there - on this one, the "E" is on the arm, which explains when I have not found many of those spring seats with a makers mark for P14 - several for M1917, but they never had the volley sight arm... That rifle happens to be all "E" to the last little bit - but I have not found an appropriate full stock for it. The "E" stock that it is in has been cut down to make a hunting gun - that stock has the same serial number in barrel channel, as in on the receiver... That stock also has no finger grooves - never did - so I know it was a "fat boy" stock made by Eddystone, before somebody started whittling away on it, which goes with the rest of the rifle, besides the serial numbers...
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- Western Manitoba
This is some pictures of the only full length P14 stock that I have found, and it is in pretty grim shape - have never yet found hand guards that would have a hope of "matching" to it. Because there are washed out remnants of finger grooves, it is not an Eddystone "fat boy" stock, but nothing found so far to tell me which maker this was from.
A closer view of the right side, behind where the Lower Band would live - can see the through hole and recess for the Volley sight front base through screw.
Same stock, left side - can see through hole, hole for stud, inletting for the base and inletting for when the volley sight leg got rotated around and back and laid at rest. Again, notice the finger grooves, so not a "fat boy" stock.
A closer view of the right side, behind where the Lower Band would live - can see the through hole and recess for the Volley sight front base through screw.
Same stock, left side - can see through hole, hole for stud, inletting for the base and inletting for when the volley sight leg got rotated around and back and laid at rest. Again, notice the finger grooves, so not a "fat boy" stock.
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- Location
- Western Manitoba
So, likely breaking rules somehow, for somebody, but here are 5 pictures of sketches taken from J.C. Harrison book. I had earlier mentioned another twist. All P14 production by all three makers started as the Mark I version - part way through the run, a change was ordered to the rear of the barrel face and the left bolt lug - that became the Mark I* - so two versions of each of "E", "R" and "W" made during WWI from those three factories. Most, but apparently not all, Mark I were altered into the Mark I* configuration. I have examples of both as barrelled actions with matching serial numbers on the bolts, in cut down "hunting stocks" - but no complete "full stocked" rifles. That is why some have a "star" or "asterisk" stamped on receiver and bolt (and extractor), and some do not.. Note that all WWI produced rifles had a volley sight.
An Eddystone "fat boy" stock - note there are no finger grooves like the others.
The other Eddystone stock that was produced - was not the "fat boy"
Then a Remington P14:
This a Winchester P14 with a detail about the Fine Sight - was only installed on "W" made rifles that went to sniper duty, and ONLY Winchester rifles were selected for that role - no "E" or "R" - most, until very late in the WWI, did NOT have scopes on them.
And finally, a sketch of the WWII British made stocks for P14 - no provision for volley sights at all.
An Eddystone "fat boy" stock - note there are no finger grooves like the others.
The other Eddystone stock that was produced - was not the "fat boy"
Then a Remington P14:
This a Winchester P14 with a detail about the Fine Sight - was only installed on "W" made rifles that went to sniper duty, and ONLY Winchester rifles were selected for that role - no "E" or "R" - most, until very late in the WWI, did NOT have scopes on them.
And finally, a sketch of the WWII British made stocks for P14 - no provision for volley sights at all.
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I do not know why the pictures are not showing in Post #13 and #14 - do not think I did anything different compared to Post #12?? I have to click on the "Attachment ###XX" link to see the picture, but it pops up in another screen? If anyone knows what I did and how to fix it, let me know...
EDIT: 3:07 PM - I just deleted and re-loaded the pictures for Post #13 and #14, so hope they stay visible this time...
EDIT: 3:07 PM - I just deleted and re-loaded the pictures for Post #13 and #14, so hope they stay visible this time...
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You Sir...are a wealth of knowledge. Your post after mine about which rifles had volley sights as well as Milsurpo"s clarification cleared things up for me. An yes your final pics you just posted are a great help also. To me now it looks like not worth it to try and install the volley sights at this point even on the repro stock I have here. Kind of a shame as my rifle is a Winchester and this rear sight is W marked. So me is thinking to just keep it for maybe a future use if I find something appropriate,or sell it maybe..who knows!!
I do remember seeing a stock a couple of years back at a gun show with handguards and metal for $250.00. The stock itself though was in very rough shape,it looked like a rail road tie that had been run over by a train. Who knows,maybe next year when we can have gun shows in AB. I can find it again.I cant remember if it had the cutout for the volley sight but I do remember what show it was at and will give me a reason to go again!!
Thanks for the help guys, muchly appreciated.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
IceHunter121 - when looking at that stock - if it does not have a front volley sight inlet and does not look like area has been sanded down - it could be a British WWII P14 Mark II stock or it could be a M1917 stock - the ones I have here, a P14 will pretty much "drop in" to an M1917 stock - going the other way - a M1917 into a P14 stock - some minor inletting around the trigger guard required, and open up front end of magazine mortice, is needed to put a M1917 into a P14 stock. I have loose parts - an M1917 magazine that was filed at front end to fit into a P14 trigger guard - so someone might have tried to make it work. I am pretty certain most military were after "drop in" stuff - did not want to "hand fit", grind, file to make a parts change in the field - the bigger British Army workshops certainly could and would do some pretty "fancy" wood and metal repairs to make stuff work, but was not the overall plan for in the field.
Rear hand guards are different P14 to M1917, but either will work on either. (one book here explains - other book disagrees) I do not know of any difference between the front hand guards, other than perhaps markings on the inside.
Perhaps the more fussy that you get, the more difficult the re-build to "factory original". Many parts from SMLE and M1917 will fit and work just fine on a P14 - but are wrong "markings". I have a hunting P14 with a rear sling swivel base - with a clear British Broad Arrow stamp on the sling swivel base - that is an SMLE part, not a P14 part. But it looks virtually identical - sling loop is even offset. Because of that Broad Arrow, I did not even try to remove the sling loop - on a P14, the sling loops are (or should have been) stamped on the sides of the "eye" with the maker's mark So, an "all matching" "W" or "R" P14 needs little "W"'s or "R's" stamped on the sides of the sling loop eyes to be "correct" - as it left the factory. Will not know if it has an "W" or an "R" without removing it. That is besides the "W" or "R" or "E" stamped on the thing the loop is attached to - some of them have their marks against the wood, so most all have to be removed to identify. I find that more with "W" and "R" marked parts - markings are against the wood - more "E" parts seem to be stamped to see the "E" when the rifle is assembled. Probably does not matter if trying to build "a" P14 that will fire a cartridge; only becomes an issue if claimed to be "all matching" or something similar. I am guessing at least 20 or more of the parts marked for M1917 will fit and work fine in a P14, and vice versa - the rifles "work" - but are not "correct"...
Rear hand guards are different P14 to M1917, but either will work on either. (one book here explains - other book disagrees) I do not know of any difference between the front hand guards, other than perhaps markings on the inside.
Perhaps the more fussy that you get, the more difficult the re-build to "factory original". Many parts from SMLE and M1917 will fit and work just fine on a P14 - but are wrong "markings". I have a hunting P14 with a rear sling swivel base - with a clear British Broad Arrow stamp on the sling swivel base - that is an SMLE part, not a P14 part. But it looks virtually identical - sling loop is even offset. Because of that Broad Arrow, I did not even try to remove the sling loop - on a P14, the sling loops are (or should have been) stamped on the sides of the "eye" with the maker's mark So, an "all matching" "W" or "R" P14 needs little "W"'s or "R's" stamped on the sides of the sling loop eyes to be "correct" - as it left the factory. Will not know if it has an "W" or an "R" without removing it. That is besides the "W" or "R" or "E" stamped on the thing the loop is attached to - some of them have their marks against the wood, so most all have to be removed to identify. I find that more with "W" and "R" marked parts - markings are against the wood - more "E" parts seem to be stamped to see the "E" when the rifle is assembled. Probably does not matter if trying to build "a" P14 that will fire a cartridge; only becomes an issue if claimed to be "all matching" or something similar. I am guessing at least 20 or more of the parts marked for M1917 will fit and work fine in a P14, and vice versa - the rifles "work" - but are not "correct"...
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