P14

[antiqueguy]

I have bits and pieces of P'14 and M1917 actions kicking around. Doubt that I'll ever use them. Basically too much work for a rifle I don't need. Only new No. 4 barrel I have left is a '50s BSA replacement barrel in the grease paper. In the day, they were 3 for a $100. Maybe I'll trip over a sported 4T.
The BSA sporter in the photo is a good solid hunting rifle. But I can't see that I would ever build a custom rifle on the action.
Pblatz posted a photo of one of the A-Squares. It is my understanding that some of the actions they used came out of the drill rifles imported from India - the ones with the holes drilled through their chambers. Broke one of these for parts, used the stock to rebuild a sporter. The bore was absolutely like new. Too bad they'd drilled it.

I have been doing some much reading in the last couple of month on the p14 and wildcatting my head hurts im new to the wildcat thing so whole new world for me 6mm Musgrave data is non existent but it has about the same case capacity as the .243 Winchester I'm going to use the .243 win starting loads as max for the Musgrave drop 10-15% and work up. all I know is the barrel I got is a heavy profile and should shoot minute of coyote once I figure out a load.

I would love to find a rifle built by epps from what I understand his wildcats were limited because of bullet construction something about old sporters built by guys like him and others that were made on common/cheap surplus actions at the time

 

[tiriaq]

From time to time rifles built by Elwood turn up. He was good. Some of the Lee Enfield conversions he did in one piece stocks are really slick lightweight hunting rifles. Used to enjoy visiting his shop in Clinton. Last time I was talking to him in Orillia, he was not well, towing an oxygen tank around.

 

[Pblatzz]

Here is a rifle I had many years ago. It was in 375H&H, smooth action super fast.

 

[woodchopper]

way back Milarm had a bunch of 300WM and 7mmRM barrels up in the attic that were threaded and chambered for P14s

 

[Johnny G1]

P14 in a Epps improved, 25-303A1 and the same as 257A1 and a one hole gun, shot a few deer on the island with it back in the 70s and has been in the safe since, custom stock and a 3x9 Scope chief on it. Has the ears removed by Epps.

 

[tiriaq]

Here is a rifle I had many years ago. It was in 375H&H, smooth action super fast.

Classic custom rifle.

 

[quinnbrian]

There is only one.....444cal

 

[bearhunter]

way back Milarm had a bunch of 300WM and 7mmRM barrels up in the attic that were threaded and chambered for P14s

Those came over to Canada from a defunct European company. They were initially brought in by International Firearms. International ran a heck of a deal on the P series Enfields, chambered in 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag. That's where the receivers I bought came from.

Milarm, Marstar, Districorp, Lever Arms and a few others bought up the leftovers, such as stocks, customized trigger guards, floor plates, barrels, bolts, sights, clamp on sling swivels, different types of rear/front sights and butt pads. I picked up enough bits to make and finish ten rifles. Did well on a few but most people wanted something lighter and newer.

By the way, the P series Enfields aren't notably stronger than Springfield O3, Mauser and even Carcano actions, according to PO ACKLEY. He did extensive testing on several pristine examples of each type, all the way to catastrophic failure. The Springfield and Enfield actions weren't as strong as the Mauser rifles tested. The Carcano actions were on the same level and the Arisaka 38 and 99 actions couldn't be blown up.

The beauty of the P series actions is in size of the barrel tenon they will accept. This allows for some large diameter cases, while still leaving a lot of metal around the chamber area.

I like P series Enfield actions and rifles built on them. I like the military versions as well as sporting rifles built on the receivers.

Remington had thousands of the receivers and bolts left over, after WWI contracts were canceled and re machined the receivers into Model 30 and 30 Express rifles. They were/are good rifles. Today, very few people know what they are or how good they are. Their blocky design is no longer considered attractive to many. Most just hard to sell curiosities.

 

[Rugdoc]

Way cheaper to buy a 375-family hunting rifle and be done with it.

 

[bordam]

Roy Dunlap's book, "Gunsmithing" has descriptions of making the trigger guard modification you describe. Else, you want to find a commercial BSA P14 conversion - the trigger guards were straightened already on the higher grade one - for sure on the Model D and Model E - not sure about the Model C.

Be aware that there were three manufacturers of P14's, and, at best, there was maybe 75% interchangeablility for "drop-in" parts. Specific magazines, needed to partner with specific followers, for example. There was a change in design partway through production, so there are two different bolt designs - one needs a relief groove in the rear of the barrel face, one does not - depends on whether the bolt you will use has the extended or original length left bolt lug. However, once into "custom" work, the sky is the limit. I have .pdf's from an older magazine showing the machining steps required to convert a P14 to 505 Gibbs and to 416 Rigby. Have to fab your own magazine box and follower, and so on.

As mentioned above, just after WWII, these were very inexpensive, and many were converted to perfectly suitable "moose rifles". I have several examples here - from simple "saw off the long stock" and go shoot a moose, to very nice commercial ones like from BSA. Elwood Epps created a "poor man's magnum" by enlarging the 303 British chamber - totally a handloading proposition these days, but very comparable to today's 30-06 performance.

When it comes to barrels, note that the barrel thread is unusual - it is a square profile thread, not a "V" thread. I mess around on my lathe a bit, but grinding a "square groove" cutter and cutting those threads is not something I have done. But as mentioned above, once you figure out how you will get a barrel thread cut, then you can use almost any bore barrel blank, and chamber to almost any cartridge. It will just cost either your welding and machining time, or paying someone else to do it, once you have figured out exactly what you want done. Note also that the rear action screw is not square to the bore line - lower end is tilted forward about 5 degrees - either needs to be welded up, re-drilled and re-threaded to square, with similar change to hole in rear of trigger guard, or it is an additional complication when attempting to inlet a stock and have the trigger guard fit to the action.

Hi,
I have a project to put 505 Gibbs on a P14 action and I just saw - you have a .pdf's from an older magazine showing the machining steps required to convert a P14 to 505 Gibbs and to 416 Rigby. Could you please send me the pdf? It will be very helpful.

Thank you.
Borislav

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

Those came over to Canada from a defunct European company. They were initially brought in by International Firearms. International ran a heck of a deal on the P series Enfields, chambered in 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag. That's where the receivers I bought came from.

.....

I had one of the Centurions for many years. M1917 action with a P'14 bolt in 300 WM. A very reliable rifle. Mine was in a synthetic stock and the exterior finish of the barrel was rings like very fine threads. The most favourable feature of that family of rifles is the positive safety. It is a plunger that sticks into the bolt handle.

Would I buy another? No. The blind magazine was a nuisance, and the bolt had to be snapped back at the end of the stroke so the top rim would come up enough to strip. And that is probably going to be the hardest geometry to work through to reliable.

 

[tiriaq]

I think the last and the best of the Remington M1917 based sporting rifles was the 720. Very limited production, ended with WW2.

 

[blazinbilly]

OP; It has to be a labor of love as it is a lot of work. Read up as much as you can as there are differences in the P14 and M17. Did one up in 375 RUM , 7STW because of action length. Have others as well as 4 actions sitting here debating weather I want to get involved in another. As others have said you will spend a 1000$ to get a 500$ rifle that will be hard to sell.

 

[hobophobe]

Any specific caliber you want or for any purpose like hunting related ?

If you find a barrel and it is warn maybe a 8mm- .303
Also there is a 7.62x39 ( a 7.62x54r is much higher pressures than the .303 and would push the Enfields action beyond the safe limits )
25-.303 is a popular one
6.5 - .303 is another good setup. Aka the " fast cat"

I believe there is a CGN user who sells .45acp kits
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/578034-45-acp-enfields


It all depends were you want to go with the build and what purpose it will be used for

A p14 is plenty strong for 7.62x54r.

 

[mbogo3]

7x57R

 

[tiriaq]

If you are wanting to build a custom sporter on an Enfield action, look for one of the BSA sported rifles. Apart from straightening the trigger guard, all the hard action work is done - receiver contoured, drilled and tapped for Remington 700 pattern scope bases and for an aperture sight. They usually sell for reasonable prices.

 

[slug]

Long ago, I was told that the Pattern 14 rifle could be easily rebarrelled to 45/70.
Feeding was enhanced by turning down the rim of the 45 cartridge, a simple matter with lathe access.

 

[Potashminer]

I do not know about the "easy" part - P14, Model of 1917 and others of that era had square threads on the barrel tenon - not "v" threads. I have spoken with a few machinists who have never cut a square thread - only "v" threads. I struggle to grind a "square" cutter for my lathe, and then "no guts" to attempt to cut that thread - so re-barreling a P14 is not "simple" for me to do - I have to get past that threading issue first. No doubt there were "old timers" who would do that as matter of course - not so sure about how common to be done today, anymore, though ...

 

[tiriaq]

^^^^^
In addition, the P-14 does not have a flat barrel breech face.
There is also the removal of the original barrel. They can be a pig. Cutting a relief groove in the barrel shoulder about 1/16" from the receiver helps. It is entirely possible to crack the receiver when attempting barrel removal.

 

[fingers284]

I have spoken with a few machinists who have never cut a square thread - only "v" threads.

The first thread I ever cut with a lathe was a square thread for a Rem RB '. I have cut a couple more since then and a few V threads and my opinion is that the square thread is simple as dirt if you have a specimen to measure off of to grind the cutter. Small piece of HSS square cutter blank and an ordinary bench grinder makes a cutter in a minute or so.
What you end up with is a small "parting tool" cutter that you travers at the thread pitch...keep it sharp and you will cut a thread easy-peasy.

Tiriaq is very right, those ultra hardened front rings can "snap crack" at barrel removal and those cracks can be undetectable at a glance. Old school custom gunsmiths used to recomend every Enfield action be magna-fluxed after barrel removal to detect very small hair line cracks. My buddy and I didnt have access to that kind of service so we did a "poor-mans" sort of crack detection thing...we sprayed penetrating oil inside the threaded area of the action and then dusted the outside with flour and let it set for a day, if there is a hair line crack the pen oil will seep thru the crack and instantly show wet in the flour.