P17 Markings

[Johnyy]

Hi, I got this old Enfield Model P17 a few moons ago, literally, from the Farmer up the road, & literally, it's been in the Barn for several decades.
Other than the barrel being VERY rusty, & overall, somewhat rusty-ish. (I'm soaking it as we speak) I was able to remove the bolt, work the action, squeeze trigger etc. It's not great, but, everything moved & was smooth.
I search here 3 years back..not much on these.

I'm not a Milsurp guy, I was thinking to do this right, get a nice stock for it etc. but, not sure, & not sure about the barrel.

Here's the Markings on it, & the first few Markings of serial # {W13 ----)...All Serial #'s Match, as in Barrel, Bolt, Receiver.
Just wondering the probable History on this piece,
& Any info on it would be greatly appreciated, as I know very little on the topic, & not allot info on here or on Canadian sites, selling them, or selling parts for them.


Thnx in Advance!

 

[Potashminer]

There were three makers of those rifles in WWI - none before (except a very few made up at Enfield armoury in England) or since - that VP in an oval, is a Winchester proof mark - so your serial number likely should start with letter "W", if it was a P14 in 303 British - if it is a M1917 rifle in 30-06 it will say "US Model of 1917" on top of receiver - then full name of the maker - Winchester, Remington or Eddystone. Was done differently between P14 and M1917, even though made in same factories. Original USA rifles will have serial number on receiver and original barrel - many barrels were swapped out in the big USA rebuild projects for WWII. The bolt never had a serial number if it stayed in USA military hands - would have the maker's mark, though. If the rifle ended up with Canadian military, or British, or some other countries - the receiver serial number would have been stamped on the bolt handle - but an original USA owned and used rifle would not. The stock is maybe also significant - should be cartouches stamped into wood on right side of the butt stock to indicate the original maker - I believe the maker's letter was also stamped into the very end grain of the fore-arm - can be seen underneath the front sight.

To be "complete" or "correct" as sent out from factory - is about 80 parts on either P14 or M1917 - most will have the maker mark on the part - except most springs (I have or have had numerous magazine springs marked "E", "R" or "W") and screws. M1917 has full serial number on receiver and barrel - all M1917 parts should also have the eagle head acceptance mark; P14 has full serial number on receiver, barrel, bolt and rear sight, and NO eagle heads anywhere on it or its parts. Is some parts that are "drop in" replacement - P14 to M1917 and vice-versa, and then many more that could be "made to work" - although few, if any, military armourers would do so - almost all done at a kitchen table or similar after being sold off from military. Gets to be difficult to authenticate correct original parts that do not have maker's marks on them. Is really only of concern if someone claiming the price for an "all matching" specimen - is very rare - might not even actually exist any more? An exception is the documented practice of the British Army to have the nose of M1917 firing pin turned down to use in their P14's - although that was an authentic military mod, that piece is no longer "all matching" - is NOT how it left the original factory.

This is a Model of 1917 rifle made by Winchester - aka M1917 or aka P17. Can probably make out the various eagle head acceptance markings on receiver and barrel?? Originally chamber in 30-06.



This is a P14 - made by Winchester - aka "Pattern 1914", or later as the British No. 3 rifle. Note there are NO eagle head acceptance marks - was made in USA, but not for USA military - British wanted serial number on bolt handle - is what they got. Is known to be made by Winchester because serial number starts with "W". Eddystone and Remington had symbols on top of the receiver - Winchester did not. Originally chambered in 303 British.

 

[Johnyy]

Hey Thnx, K, looks like a P14! Awesome. & Yes, W..W13 it starts with, as per the picture. I got it as is..No Stock, so ya, that sucks. & The Barrel is CANTED & was very rusty. SO, abeit, it is -still- an actual "Firearm" .. whats a 'matching' barreled action P14 worth, & is their a market for such? {Parts or Rebuild?}

Thnx allot..

John

 

[Potashminer]

Price - between 2018 and 2020 I bought 9 x P14's - almost all were "sporterized" stocks - so cut down ex-military - would maybe be called "moose guns" - most all were shootable as received, except one - most got torn down for parts - I paid low of $60, to high of $300 - mailed to me from EE on CGN. If you have a receiver and a barrel, especially with the pits /corrosion shown on your OP pictures - I suspect very much near low end of that. I have found original full length stocks with identifiable markings to be very hard to come by - I think thousands were sawed up after WWII when sold off cheaply as surplus - also is an issue to find sellers who have a clue what it is they are trying to sell. The item says what it is - does not matter what somebody said it is ... Is much confusion between P14 and M1917 - and then multiple stock fittings / sling swivels (for example) from No. 1 or No. 4 Lee Enfield can be made to "work".

To make up a "shootable" rifle, also need a healthy barrel - some pits might be expected, but is also sewer pipes being sold - so bore condition is actually fairly important to some of us - and being able to "see rifling" as an assessment of bore condition is saying a lot about the potential seller's level of knowledge and ability.

 

[nowarningshot]

Once it's shortened, for me their value is as a cheap donor action for big boomers. I've had them in 338wm, 300wm........currently have in 264wm and 416rigby.

All were heavy, which is a good thing in stout recoiling rifles. Actually the 264 is about as light as a 1917 gets, with a nice short length of pull, and a average piece of wood that just screams to go through brambles.

The above post is about as.detailed and knowledgeable as I've seen. Right up there with the stickied thread by Barabal on Huskys. Excellent rifles. Hope your rifle is salvageable.

The W before the serial number makes yours a Winchester, the most desired builder. The other two are Remington and a Remington subsidiary Eddystone(marked ERA). Early Eddystone receivers have a reputation for poor heat treating, known for receiver cracks when you remove the original barrel to rebarrel. Barrel receiver threads are a different style IIRC? Most of the smith's that converted these to African calibers are probably gone now. Believe Elwood Epps did alot, he specialized in blowing out the brass taper in 303 British/p14 and necking them up and down as Eps improved.

 

[Johnyy]

Ah, K, Thnx! It has the Full Barrel, just it was very rusty & CANTED. I read some other threads of Canted barrels? Seems everything is there, but a stock. Not sure if barrel is salvable, probably just sell it for someone to fix{canted barrel} or in need of the parts. P17's are more prized/expensive it seems...this is a P14 I think, so that sucks! lol Not much on the value scale.

Cheerz ~

 

[Potashminer]

...

The W before the serial number makes yours a Winchester, the most desired builder. The other two are Remington and a Remington subsidiary Eddystone(marked ERA). Early Eddystone receivers have a reputation for poor heat treating, known for receiver cracks when you remove the original barrel to rebarrel. Barrel receiver threads are a different style IIRC? Most of the smith's that converted these to African calibers are probably gone now. Believe Elwood Epps did alot, he specialized in blowing out the brass taper in 303 British/p14 and necking them up and down as Eps improved.

"different style" - most Mauser and many modern rifles use a "V" profile thread on barrel and inside receiver - P13, P14, M1917, and their progeny (Remington Model 30) used a square profile thread - I struggle to cut "V" threads on my lathe - I am very much intimidated to even try to grind a cutter to make those square profile threads, so I have not tried to - my "hat is off" to those that can do that!! Most definitely "different" compared to what is "normal" today!!

 

[Potashminer]

...

The W before the serial number makes yours a Winchester, the most desired builder. The other two are Remington and a Remington subsidiary Eddystone(marked ERA). Early Eddystone receivers have a reputation for poor heat treating, known for receiver cracks when you remove the original barrel to rebarrel. Barrel receiver threads are a different style IIRC? Most of the smith's that converted these to African calibers are probably gone now. Believe Elwood Epps did alot, he specialized in blowing out the brass taper in 303 British/p14 and necking them up and down as Eps improved.

FYI - apparently also happened with Eddystone M1917 receivers - see picture below - that receiver had a WWII re-build barrel installed - but Eddystone receiver - crack was not noticed or visible until the preservative grease was cleaned off. Neither seller nor I was aware of it until the cleaning was done ... It was the unfired WWII rebuild barrel that I was after - the receiver was a "bonus" to me, but turned out to be not useable - that barrel screwed in without drama into another M1917 Eddystone receiver.

 

[Potashminer]

Ah, K, Thnx! It has the Full Barrel, just it was very rusty & CANTED. I read some other threads of Canted barrels? Seems everything is there, but a stock. Not sure if barrel is salvable, probably just sell it for someone to fix{canted barrel} or in need of the parts. P17's are more prized/expensive it seems...this is a P14 I think, so that sucks! lol Not much on the value scale.

Cheerz ~

I am not sure about the canted thing - no doubt errors could have been made in initial production? Should be an alignment mark stamped on bottom centre of receiver and also on the barrel shoulder - with good receiver wrench and barrel vice, the receiver was torqued on so that the marks lined up - or at least close - then is best to verify headspace with proper GO and FIELD gauges. If made correctly, that barrel then has a slot cut for the front sight - a square-ish profile - like for key-stock - is called, I think, the "foresight block band key" - (Charles Stratton, p.92) That "key" sits half in that barrel slot and half into the front sight mount - is not adjustable left/right - unless the front sight assembly took a serious blow and entire front sight assembly is bent?? Or perhaps some barrel slots were mis-cut and were not 180 degrees to the indicator mark? The idea at the time - many militaries, including Mauser rifles - barrel had sights installed, was chambered, pre-threaded for receiver - spin damaged one off, and spin on replacement one to the alignment mark - 99% of time was ready to go back into action - headspace, sighting, etc. was almost always good enough to go.

As you no doubt can see, the front sight insert is set into a dovetail into that front sight base - so was some capacity to move the sighting element left/right if the slot was slightly in error? Also multiple heights of those front sight inserts were available - to "sight in" so that the rear sight elevator markings were true to the ranges shown. To be understood - these were battle rifles produced during war time - so cost to produce, speed to produce counted about as much as "precision" - was about epitome of "made good enough" - usually, in those days, the side that showed up with the most stuff were the ultimate winners - very high quality / precision rifles did not actually really count for much, so long as it went "bang".

"Everything is there" - what I found that many times most all of the stock fittings were discarded when stock was removed or modified - including the cross screws which are difficult to find today. Many or most of those fittings require the front sight to be removed from barrel - to remove those pieces going forward - so were often snipped or hack sawed off to be removed. These rifles were cheap in the day, and plentiful - so were not likely treated with "kid gloves", as antiques, when being turned into a perfectly suitable "moose rifle". Or, military barrel was hacksawed off right behind front sight - discarded - stock things removed - then a home made front sight installed - was about exactly what my Dad did with his M1917 in 1948.

Back to that "canted" thing - is curious - chamber area needs a cut-out for the extractor nose - so that has to be aligned for the rifle to work - for the bolt to close - maybe is only the front sight carrier that is canted? Not sure I understand how a P14/M1917 barrel can be canted, in a rifle that is capable of firing? Is also possible, I suppose, that someone used a "make do" barrel clamp up on the skinnier part of barrel - grabbed the receiver with a receiver wrench and twisted the barrel during attempt to unscrew it?? I have not seen such - would think that would show up as distortion of the rifling spiral, but I do not know - I have never seen this "cant" to diagnose.

 

[Potashminer]

...

I'm not a Milsurp guy, I was thinking to do this right, get a nice stock for it etc. but, not sure, & not sure about the barrel.

...

Stocks - I did get more than one Boyd's reproduction stock sets for M1917 - one P14 that I bought was installed into a Boyd's M1917 stock - seller did not know there was a difference, but there is - mostly in the inletting for the trigger guard front shoulders - trigger guards are NOT the same. So, not sure what you have in mind about a "nice stock" - a long one like the original with hand guards, or shorter like a sporter rifle - both are (or, at least, were) available from Boyd's. I am not sure about P14, but many M1917 had the tongue front end of the trigger guard cut off and straightened - so is different stock and magazine box (and front action screw) if your rifle still has the "goose neck" trigger guard, or a straightened one.

 

[cosmic]

If the bore is beat, and a lot of old 303's are, the value of the gun is in the remaining bits. (~100$). Its quite common to see cut down P-14 or M-17 stocks or the EE for 50-75$, a Boyds is going to set you back over 200$ by the time it lands in Canada. So your first priority is to clean and assess the bore.

 

[Johnyy]

I'll put a pic up of the "barn Find'..but literally, the bore was caked with debris, & actually not 'canted' ..it's actually Bent! Surprising, as the bolt moved freely, came out, nothing was seized.
Maybe if it was a 30.06 P17 I'd have some interest, but I'll probably put it up on EE for what it is, try to get a few bucks out of it.

There is front/rear sites/bolt, trigger, guard, safety, basically a full receiver, no floor plate though for mag? Not sure if that's part of the stock or not?
All matching #'s. Hopefully someone with a Sporterized/Nutured one, can use those parts. Or clean it up. fix or find barrel, & stock? Who knows. I guess it is what it is. Still a pretty neat find I got off my neighbor, I'm sure with some interesting history.

So, I went by the old farmers this A.M but he wasnt there, going to ask if he has any more bits/pieces or parts of a rotted¿ stock perhaps.
Here is it:

 

[Potashminer]

Your "barn find" - so the three makers never did achieve 100% interchangeability for all parts in P14 - drove the British nuts - to the extent, at some point, they were adopted by British military as three different rifles - depending on maker - which would have resulted in three parts supply streams and listings. One of the books here has a copy of the list that WWI British armourers used for which parts from which maker could go onto which rifles, and which parts could not. I never tried, but I think the magazine followers were one item that may not have been interchangeable - or only some work with some others - not all interchangeable to each - so your missing floor plate usually would have had the flat magazine spring attached to it, then the follower attached to the spring - so have to dismantle and ID who made the magazine box that is in there - as it happens, a "W" made mag box would only drop in fit to a "W" receiver, but home person could file and whatnot and make one fit to an "E" or "R" receiver. Then, I think, need the follower to go with that mag box. Then need the flat spring - most definitely different P14 to M1917, but can make one for an M1917 work in P14 by trimming it. Of the P14's that I bought, several had M1917 floor plates - with the eagle head acceptance mark - does not belong on a British rifle, but it "fits". One rifle that I bought - P14 or M1917 - had a German Mauser spring and follower within the magazine - seller had been using it - so that "worked". Usually the maker's mark is on the rear face of the magazine box, although some are on the top of the rear flat of the mag box - usually a single letter - "E", "R" or "W" - but might also be "2E", etc. The followers usually marked on their underside - the face that is toward the magazine space and the floor plate is usually marked on the top surface - again, towards the magazine - many times not visible until the mag spring is removed.

As was common at that time, like the Mausers, a WWI solder could dismantle and remove that floor plate - he just needed a pointy FMJ bullet - a user today can do same thing with small punch or similar hand tool - could clean out mud or whatever that got into the magazine. Same with that bolt - WWI soldier was taught how to remove the "guts" and clean in there - something is very wrong with it the way you show - the cocking piece is at least a 1/4 turn out of whack - may not be threaded in all the way?? You will not close that bolt in that condition into that receiver.

For dismantling - you will discover there are only slotted screw heads on that rifle - so you will need a snug fitting parallel or hollow ground screwdriver for each - I have about 60 or more here - still occasionally have to grind a new-to-me driver to fit a new-to-me screw slot - must fit snug - fully to the bottom, fully the length of the slot - common household or mechanic screwdrivers have taper sides - will roll over the top edge of a slotted screw when torque applied to loosen or tighten - had read that the technical "gunsmith" term for messed up screw slots is that they are "buggered".

Your front sight carrier has had the protective ears cut or filed off - depending what you want to do with this, will need to replace that carrier - likely any one of the three makers would work - but best to find the maker's mark on that one and find identical. For the sight element - can re-use that one, or from M1917, Lee Enfield No. 1 or Lee Enfield No. 4.

Bent barrels can be straightened - Anschutz and Remington (and likely many others) do so in their factories - Corlane's in B.C. straightened my brother's 300 Win Mag barrel after he bent it rolling over with his snowmobile. I have 1920's gunsmith text books showing how that was done - how to evaluate whether you got that bore straight again, or made more bends in it. The check is done by the shadow lines cast by a straightedge hanging in a window or other light source - against the riflings within the barrel - the idea is to make the rifled bore straight - not certain that always matches up with "straight" on the exterior of the barrel?

 

[Johnyy]

Hey Thnx allot Potashminer for all your insight, facts & knowledge. I only ever owned a couple .303's in my 20 years of being into Firearms...& ya, they were both Sporters lol. Sorry
MILSURP to me, is liken' to my first ever purchase after getting my PAL, was a 1954 Russian SKS. other Com Block goodies, An M1 Garand or M1 Crb here or there. Guess, never got into these.
I need to buy the Farmer a {Big?} bottle of Whiskey, & make it worth it for myself..which it won't be lol ...what's fair? $150 shipped comes to mind?

Cheerz ~

 

[cosmic]

Well - Either cut the barrel off to minimize the package size, or strip the action and sell the bits. If you can get 150$ shipped, you've had a good day. Ask the farmer if he was the one that ran over it with the tractor....

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

A lot of "Enfields" as the American call them, P'14s and Model 1917s as the rest of the world call them, are not the greatest rifles available. Many quirks in the manufacturing which reduce their civilian application. The photo of the cracked receiver is proof of one feature. The steel was hardened to specification, but much harder than probably necessary. That means receiver rings crack, sight ears are a bear to remove, and drilling for scope bases is almost impossible. If the receiver is a donor for a gunsmithing project, the easiest way to start is to cut the barrel at the threads to break the stress.

I have a couple of pretty-competitive 1970s DCRA target rifles built on Eddystone receivers. Substantial bolt lugs, #### on closing firing pins, and very forgiving on the bedding. I also had a M'17 with a P'14 bolt rebarrelled to 300 WM by Century. It was a very good rifle on the prairies. Someone else redid the metal work, and I ended up with a practical plastic stocked big game rifle. I had a good deal on a Savage 300 WM from a relative, and sold the "Centurion" onwards. Speaking of simple surplus .303 hunting rifles a chap I know, found one leaning against a tree in the spring. He figured someone had shot their deer, leaned the rifle against something, cleaned the deer, and either lost it in the dark or forgot it. He hunted with that rifle for many years.

 

[Johnyy]

The photo of the cracked receiver is proof of one feature. .

What Specific Photo are you referring too? The only photos on this thread are what Potashminer & I posted. I dont see any Cracked Receivers in any of those.

 

[cosmic]

Post # 8...

 

[Johnyy]

^ Ahh, k, Thnx. with my phone b4, it didnt load some photos. Cheerz ~

 

[Potashminer]

OP - if that barrel is what you consider beyond hope? Several years ago I wanted a BSA sporter conversion - were modified by BSA in England from the M1917 rifles - they did all the "hard work" of grinding, drilling, tapping, re-bluing, etc. I do not know if BSA did so with P14 rifles? A seller on an island off Vancouver Island had one - was of no use to him nor was that barrel any use to me - so he sawed off the barrel, perhaps 5" ahead of receiver - then drilled sideways through it (more or less into chamber, but NOT touching the receiver) - then riveted a bolt across there (or maybe it was pop-rivets?) - mailed it to me like that - no stock, the bolt was removed from receiver, but in the parcel - a MUCH smaller parcel than with the 26" barrel attached. After I removed his riveting job, that barrel stub left me enough to grab it with my barrel vice and I was able to unscrew with my receiver wrench. I am pretty certain that was one that I went around the shoulder - perhaps 1/16" or less from the receiver face - and made about 1/8" deep slot with hack saw, before trying to unscrew it. I was able to screw on an original Model 30 Remington barrel, and set into an original Model 30 stock - so it became my "pretend" Remington Model 30, with Williams (?) aperture sight installed into the holes that BSA had made for that.

Somewhere I had read that BSA had annealing ovens - so they could soften the original receivers - do the various machining, etc., then re-do the heat treat like they wanted it done. If that is true, is known from metallurgy that heat treat advanced hugely from WWI to 1950's - so what BSA did was likely as good as such rifles were ever done?