Paper patching .452 cast for 45-90
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antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
kind of a odd ball thing to do but hey if it works for you go for it
NorthCoastBigBore
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EDIT: Disregard, I should have read the OP more carefully...
Last edited:
Maritime Storm
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- Riverview, NB
Beware that paper patching went away for 2 reasons; 1. It is a fire hazard 2. Paper is an amazing abrasive that wears rifling at an astonishing rate.
Interesting observation. Have you EVER tried shooting paper patched bullets?
A Fire Hazard? Well, it might be if you were shooting close enough to the ground that the muzzle blast would ignite something. If this was the case, ANYONE shooting a muzzle loader with a patched ball would turn the world into an inferno.
There would have been herds of Barbecued Buffalo from the fires started from the old time Sharps rifles, and the Swiss Military would have melted off all the snow in Switzerland with their GP-90 paper jacketed bullets and 1889 Schmidt Rubin rifles.
Wears the rifling away? PAPER PATCHES ARE LUBRICATED SIMILAR TO A CAST BULLET!
Over 60 years of shooting, I have never had or seen a PROPER paper patched (actually called paper JACKETED) bullet ignite ANYTHING from the paper patch, and I have shot many thousands of them. Depending upon the direction of the rifling, the patch should be wrapped so that it falls off the bullet when fired.
The main reason that the paper jacketed bullet fell from general use was the introduction of the steel/copper jacketed bullet. It was much easier to load than the paper patched bullet. As far as accuracy, take a look at some of the targets shot with 40 Rod (220 yard) target rifles. These old timers shot STANDING. Read a bit about POPE and his barrels.
Although a plain sided bullet works best for paper patching, a bullet cast from an available mould that uses grease grooves works quite well. A good patching material is dress making pattern paper, and you could buy some new at a Sewing or Dressmaking store. Ask some of the older Women you know, and chances are they have some old pattern paper they never used, or check out Garage Sales and Flea Markets where a couple of bucks will almost buy you a couple of years supply.
You can drive a paper patched bullet much faster than a cast bullet, without leading the barrel. I have successfully shot .303 and 30-06 lead paper patched bullets at over 2700 FPS measured through a chronograph, (and not set anything on fire either.)
Paper patches must be cut properly and measured according to the bullet diameter. It would take several pages to tell you how to do it, so I will refer you to a book. It was available through Wholesale Sports, and published by Wolfe Publishing, the people who publish Rifle and Handloader magazine.
The Paper Jacketed Bullet by Paul Matthews. It will tell you everything you need to know, how to measure and cut your patches, materials to use, how to make a simple patching board, etc. Well worth the money.
Well, got to go to the Range today. Must notify the Fire Departments in the surrounding Municipalities and have the Water Bombers on standby since I have some paper jacket bullets to shoot in one of my ROSS rifles. Fire Hazard, don't you know?
.
I think the light pistol slugs would be too short to shoot accurately in a rifle; too much jump to the start of the rifling. I use 100% rag content paper to patch with, cut the patch with a template and soak each patch briefly in cool water because they wrap around the slug tighter and more easily. Let them dry and then run them through a sizing die. I also think it is wise to have a sizing die that starts out oversize to accomodate the oversize patched bullet and has a tapered transition to the finished diameter. I made my own sizing dies and punch to push the slugs through with and used my loading press to hold the die. I also recommend Paul Mathews book.
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
An excellent book for those who want to shoot paper patched bullets with black powder is "Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets" by Randolph Wright.
I shoot a lot of paper patched bullets. Bore diameter and using black powder. I've shot thousands of them and have never lit anything on fire. I do understand that they will wear the bore faster than lubed bullets ( unless you are a grease groover that shoots outside in dusty conditions
, but if I ever wear out a barrel shooting paper patched bullets then I'll consider it money well spent.
Chris.
I shoot a lot of paper patched bullets. Bore diameter and using black powder. I've shot thousands of them and have never lit anything on fire. I do understand that they will wear the bore faster than lubed bullets ( unless you are a grease groover that shoots outside in dusty conditions
, but if I ever wear out a barrel shooting paper patched bullets then I'll consider it money well spent.Chris.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
complete BS ive never set anything on fire and thousands of martini henrys have shot countless paper patched bullets in their military service and in civilian hands and yet they still are the same bore diameter as when the barrels where fresh .468-.470
Maritime Storm
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Riverview, NB
Have I ever shot paper patched ammo, yes, have I ever loaded it, no. Black Powder certainly burns through paper cases, it will burn a paper patch. Load enough Black Powder shotshells, you'll burn paper cases. Paper is an abrasive, some types more than others.
http://www.lasc.us/brennan_4-4_paperpatchedbullets.htm
"Ned Roberts, in "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle", said in 1940 that his choice for a target rifle was the cast grease-grooved bullet, "....used without any kind of a patch which only wears out the rifling and causes much extra work in loading without in any way improving the accuracy.""
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-49318.html
"So, in very broad terms I would state that PP loads will polish the bore in some circumstances and probably cause accelerated wear in others if one is not attentive to proper paper quality and lube. In contrast, I think it just as likely that GG bullets will pick up the odd piece of grit and leave its mark on a barrel too. I call it a wash, all things being equal. I also don't think you'll live long enough to wear out a barrel with PP loads that are properly constructed."
This has been a hotly debated subject on a number forums for years.
http://www.lasc.us/brennan_4-4_paperpatchedbullets.htm
"Ned Roberts, in "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle", said in 1940 that his choice for a target rifle was the cast grease-grooved bullet, "....used without any kind of a patch which only wears out the rifling and causes much extra work in loading without in any way improving the accuracy.""
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-49318.html
"So, in very broad terms I would state that PP loads will polish the bore in some circumstances and probably cause accelerated wear in others if one is not attentive to proper paper quality and lube. In contrast, I think it just as likely that GG bullets will pick up the odd piece of grit and leave its mark on a barrel too. I call it a wash, all things being equal. I also don't think you'll live long enough to wear out a barrel with PP loads that are properly constructed."
This has been a hotly debated subject on a number forums for years.
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antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
I will go with the real experts the ones who wrote books on paper patching before some forum "expert" if wear on the rifling was a big issue then every martini henry or other military firearm that used them would be worn out this is not the case we are not using printer paper
Anyone who wants to know more about Paper Patching lead bullets can easily find a lot of information on that subject if they "Google" it. One of the best discussions on the wear of barrels by using paper patches follows.
Please pay attention to the last paragraph.
Barrel Wear and Patching Paper
Occasionally the question comes up, “Is paper abrasive?” or “will using paper patched bullets cause barrel wear”. The short answer to this is yes and no. Shooting the rifle will cause barrel wear. That‟s unavoidable and it will happen regardless of what bullets are used. If the barrel is to last, don‟t shoot the rifle. But like most things there is more to the story.
Paper is treated with various chemicals during the pulp making process and during the paper making process. Some of the chemicals are left in the paper after processing and some are added to the paper to produce desired effects such as lower cost, higher brightness, or to provide a sharper printed image.
There has been much written and said about this imagined problem on chat rooms, forums, and at the range. Usually the concern is with what is called ash in the paper. Paper does not contain ash. Paper may contain inorganic compounds that after burning the paper leave a residue referred to as ash. High grade filter paper and some writing papers will leave little or no ash after burning it. Newsprint will typically leave 12% ash. High quality writing or photographic paper may leave as high as 30% ash.
Newsprint is not usually treated to improve the quality of the paper so there is less inorganic material in the paper and so less ash after it is burned. High quality paper, known as Fine Paper, leaves more ash because it has been treated to produce sharper print and better images.
Could it be that these chemicals are harmful to the rifle barrel? The answer is no. The inorganic materials in paper have a hardness rating of less than 4 on the Mohs scale. Mohs is used to rate hardness of minerals from Talc, to diamonds, and abrasives. Barrel steels typically run between a Rockwell C (Rc) of 28 to 40. This roughly corresponds to a Mohs hardness of between a Mohs 4 to a Mohs 4.5.
Mohs cannot be converted to other types of hardness tests or scales but to get a feel for the scale an approximate conversion can be used. Each number on the Mohs scale is not just one more than the last in absolute hardness. Talc, Silicate of Magnesia, has a Mohs number of 1 and an absolute hardness of 1, Gypsum has a Mohs number of 2 but an absolute hardness of three, Topaz has a Mohs number of 8 but an absolute hardness of 200. Corundum, a natural aluminum oxide used for metal working has Mohs number of 9 but an absolute hardness of 400, and Diamond, used to lap dies and carbide, has a Mohs number of 10 but an absolute hardness of 1,600. A hardened knife blade might have a Mohs number of 5.5 and an absolute hardness of about 60.
Each higher number on the Mohs scale increases in absolute hardness rapidly so that something that has a Mohs number of five is quite a bit harder than something that has a Mohs number of four.
It is known that abrasives used to grind or polish steel need to have a Mohs number of 4.5 or greater. The harder the steel the harder and sharper the abrasive needs to be. A rifle barrels for .22 rimfire cartridges are usually around a 28 Rc which would be an approximate Mohs number of 4. A barrel for a centerfire cartridge would be often between 32 Rc and 40Rc with some barrels even a bit harder. This would be roughly a Mohs of 4.5 to perhaps a Mohs 5.
A common material used to treat paper is Calcium Carbonate, also known as China Clay. This mineral improves printability and is used to lower the cost of the paper. It can be a mild abrasive and is used in kitchen scouring powders (note that scouring powders contain other abrasives as well). It has a Mohs hardness of 2 to 2.5. Since steel will not be abraded by materials with less than a Mohs 4.5 rating Calcium Carbonate with a number of 2.5 will not harm the barrel.
There are a few other inorganic materials in paper that are abrasive but all are well below the 4 to 4.5 number needed to scratch steel. Some will polish soft materials like aluminum or brass but not steel. Other inorganic materials in paper are not abrasive or corrosive and pose no possibility of barrel wear.
Paper patching paper is almost always a cotton based paper so there is not likely to be any tiny bits of wood in the paper. But if there were, what of it? Wood is far less hard than steel and not abrasive. It might be that once in awhile there might be a tiny amount of bearing material in the paper but this is something that the paper maker works hard to avoid. Bronze or steel dust in the paper is an impurity, degrades the quality of the paper, and is not a routine problem. Old time bullet casting alloys often used copper and other soft metals in the alloy in an attempt to harden the alloy and reduce barrel fouling.
Most of the paper that is suitable for patching bullets will have a very limited amount of inorganic compounds in the paper. The purpose of the coatings and additives is to improve whiteness, reduce ink spread, stiffen the paper, and to make the paper glossy. Photographic paper would make a terrible patching paper. High quality presentation paper would be too stiff and slick to be useful.
Onion skin has none or very little additive, no coating and is the most used paper patch paper. It is probably safer to use a paper patched bullet than a lubricated lead bullet that has been lying around on the loading bench for several days. The dust in the air that collects on the bullet contains as much abrasive as paper might.
If the paper absorbs water easily, if ink tends to spread out on it making letter a bit fuzzy, and if it can be easily rolled onto the bullet the paper likely has few additives in it. But even if the paper does contain a few inorganic materials they are very unlikely to be of any concern.
Shooting the rifle with a metal jacketed bullet, a lubricated cast bullet, or a paper patched bullet is going to wear the barrel. Smokeless powder will cause far more barrel wear than a paper jacketed bullet. Blackpowder is death to a barrel if not properly cleaned.
If the rifle is an irreplaceable antique shooting it might not be a good idea anyway. If the rifle is a new replica then the barrel can be replaced like any other barrel. Barrels will wear out. With metal jacketed bullets and smokeless powder five thousand shots is about it. With blackpowder and paper patched bullets double or triple that number. And that‟s a lot of shooting.
Please pay attention to the last paragraph.
Barrel Wear and Patching Paper
Occasionally the question comes up, “Is paper abrasive?” or “will using paper patched bullets cause barrel wear”. The short answer to this is yes and no. Shooting the rifle will cause barrel wear. That‟s unavoidable and it will happen regardless of what bullets are used. If the barrel is to last, don‟t shoot the rifle. But like most things there is more to the story.
Paper is treated with various chemicals during the pulp making process and during the paper making process. Some of the chemicals are left in the paper after processing and some are added to the paper to produce desired effects such as lower cost, higher brightness, or to provide a sharper printed image.
There has been much written and said about this imagined problem on chat rooms, forums, and at the range. Usually the concern is with what is called ash in the paper. Paper does not contain ash. Paper may contain inorganic compounds that after burning the paper leave a residue referred to as ash. High grade filter paper and some writing papers will leave little or no ash after burning it. Newsprint will typically leave 12% ash. High quality writing or photographic paper may leave as high as 30% ash.
Newsprint is not usually treated to improve the quality of the paper so there is less inorganic material in the paper and so less ash after it is burned. High quality paper, known as Fine Paper, leaves more ash because it has been treated to produce sharper print and better images.
Could it be that these chemicals are harmful to the rifle barrel? The answer is no. The inorganic materials in paper have a hardness rating of less than 4 on the Mohs scale. Mohs is used to rate hardness of minerals from Talc, to diamonds, and abrasives. Barrel steels typically run between a Rockwell C (Rc) of 28 to 40. This roughly corresponds to a Mohs hardness of between a Mohs 4 to a Mohs 4.5.
Mohs cannot be converted to other types of hardness tests or scales but to get a feel for the scale an approximate conversion can be used. Each number on the Mohs scale is not just one more than the last in absolute hardness. Talc, Silicate of Magnesia, has a Mohs number of 1 and an absolute hardness of 1, Gypsum has a Mohs number of 2 but an absolute hardness of three, Topaz has a Mohs number of 8 but an absolute hardness of 200. Corundum, a natural aluminum oxide used for metal working has Mohs number of 9 but an absolute hardness of 400, and Diamond, used to lap dies and carbide, has a Mohs number of 10 but an absolute hardness of 1,600. A hardened knife blade might have a Mohs number of 5.5 and an absolute hardness of about 60.
Each higher number on the Mohs scale increases in absolute hardness rapidly so that something that has a Mohs number of five is quite a bit harder than something that has a Mohs number of four.
It is known that abrasives used to grind or polish steel need to have a Mohs number of 4.5 or greater. The harder the steel the harder and sharper the abrasive needs to be. A rifle barrels for .22 rimfire cartridges are usually around a 28 Rc which would be an approximate Mohs number of 4. A barrel for a centerfire cartridge would be often between 32 Rc and 40Rc with some barrels even a bit harder. This would be roughly a Mohs of 4.5 to perhaps a Mohs 5.
A common material used to treat paper is Calcium Carbonate, also known as China Clay. This mineral improves printability and is used to lower the cost of the paper. It can be a mild abrasive and is used in kitchen scouring powders (note that scouring powders contain other abrasives as well). It has a Mohs hardness of 2 to 2.5. Since steel will not be abraded by materials with less than a Mohs 4.5 rating Calcium Carbonate with a number of 2.5 will not harm the barrel.
There are a few other inorganic materials in paper that are abrasive but all are well below the 4 to 4.5 number needed to scratch steel. Some will polish soft materials like aluminum or brass but not steel. Other inorganic materials in paper are not abrasive or corrosive and pose no possibility of barrel wear.
Paper patching paper is almost always a cotton based paper so there is not likely to be any tiny bits of wood in the paper. But if there were, what of it? Wood is far less hard than steel and not abrasive. It might be that once in awhile there might be a tiny amount of bearing material in the paper but this is something that the paper maker works hard to avoid. Bronze or steel dust in the paper is an impurity, degrades the quality of the paper, and is not a routine problem. Old time bullet casting alloys often used copper and other soft metals in the alloy in an attempt to harden the alloy and reduce barrel fouling.
Most of the paper that is suitable for patching bullets will have a very limited amount of inorganic compounds in the paper. The purpose of the coatings and additives is to improve whiteness, reduce ink spread, stiffen the paper, and to make the paper glossy. Photographic paper would make a terrible patching paper. High quality presentation paper would be too stiff and slick to be useful.
Onion skin has none or very little additive, no coating and is the most used paper patch paper. It is probably safer to use a paper patched bullet than a lubricated lead bullet that has been lying around on the loading bench for several days. The dust in the air that collects on the bullet contains as much abrasive as paper might.
If the paper absorbs water easily, if ink tends to spread out on it making letter a bit fuzzy, and if it can be easily rolled onto the bullet the paper likely has few additives in it. But even if the paper does contain a few inorganic materials they are very unlikely to be of any concern.
Shooting the rifle with a metal jacketed bullet, a lubricated cast bullet, or a paper patched bullet is going to wear the barrel. Smokeless powder will cause far more barrel wear than a paper jacketed bullet. Blackpowder is death to a barrel if not properly cleaned.
If the rifle is an irreplaceable antique shooting it might not be a good idea anyway. If the rifle is a new replica then the barrel can be replaced like any other barrel. Barrels will wear out. With metal jacketed bullets and smokeless powder five thousand shots is about it. With blackpowder and paper patched bullets double or triple that number. And that‟s a lot of shooting.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
five thousand rounds for smokeless and jacketed bullets I laugh at that. just remember too older barrels are softer steel but I still doubt anyone of us could wear out a barrel in our life time
In the days of Ned Roberts barrels were made of different materials than they are today.
Kenny Wasserberger, a long distance target shooter of whom some of you may have heard, has shot more than 10,000 rounds of paper patched ammunition out of a Shiloh Sharps in .45-110 before rebarrelling. That is far better that what you'd get out of a modern rifle. I's also more rounds than most will ever shoot out of their rifles, black powder or not.
Also, who cares. Figure out the price for a rebarrel and it's minor compared to the $$ spent on lead, tin, powder, primers, etc.
I've recovered plenty of patch material from my bullets and I cannot recall any of it being burned through. Mind you I have one or more wads between the powder charge and the bullet.
Chris.
Kenny Wasserberger, a long distance target shooter of whom some of you may have heard, has shot more than 10,000 rounds of paper patched ammunition out of a Shiloh Sharps in .45-110 before rebarrelling. That is far better that what you'd get out of a modern rifle. I's also more rounds than most will ever shoot out of their rifles, black powder or not.
Also, who cares
. Figure out the price for a rebarrel and it's minor compared to the $$ spent on lead, tin, powder, primers, etc.I've recovered plenty of patch material from my bullets and I cannot recall any of it being burned through. Mind you I have one or more wads between the powder charge and the bullet.
Chris.
Maritime Storm
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Riverview, NB
I stand corrected. I just posted what I've read over time.
