Or another way of looking at it is there are manufacturers or custom makers who are willing to pay attention to the details in manufacturing a 1911 such as Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk and Ed Brown but few are willing to pay the price.....
Para GI Expert or Norinco 1911A1
- Thread starter PrimeTime
- Start date
Or another way of looking at it is there are manufacturers or custom makers who are willing to pay attention to the details in manufacturing a 1911 such as Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk and Ed Brown but few are willing to pay the price.....
the 1911 (pistol) is a design that's over 100 years old, it came around just as the Industrial Revolution was fully established. it's far from "sophisticated" or intricate, and it doesn't REALLY need that much attention to detail - i think the flip side is that so many have capitalized on it that they just churn out cheaply made "based on..." pistold by the thousands, cuz they sell based on the outside appearance (it's a 1911!!! buy buy buy!!!!)
other things that were invented aroud the same time (give or take a few years, note that back in those days advancements were slower than today) and which SOMEHOW don't require that much attention to detail if one were to reproduce them using current technologies:
a telephone
air brakes
A/C power transmission (standard #### in your house outlets)
kerosene lighting
the alkaline battery
the Ford Model-T
and so on and so forth.... hardly devices that requre significant attention to detail based on today's manufacturing technologies
mm, not really. i didn't say anything about the Para, i'm only commenting on the Norc. i've heard of the problems some people have had with their Para, but percentage-wise i've heard as many or more people say that if someone is buying a Norc they should get the ArmCo tuned version.
the point being that ANY pistol that needs 30% to 50% extra be spent on it to get it running right is not really a good pistol.
i've never shot a Para and don't know many people who actually own one except one person at the range who has commented that it sometimes FTE the .45ACP rounds. the person also noted that the ejection port is the same size as on the 9mm version, so either the port is too small or there's user error (excessive limp-wristing)
you gotta hand it to Para that they DO have some great designs - as far as in know, next to no other mfg actually offers a double-stack 1911 in .45ACP or .40S&W for that matter. there's Para, there's Norc *cough*, and i think BUL. for a platform that's been around for 100 years, how NOBODY saw the potential until recently is beyond me...
but back to this poll.... hmm, i'd take a Para if we're talking one of their unique pieces like S16-40, P14-45, Warthog, ...
I don't disagree with you in principle, but I do think you are being a bit hard on the Norincos. They are $350 guns.... It is not reasonable to expect them to be anything like a $1200 gun. If spending an extra $100 or $150 gets it close, then it is still an exceptional value. But let's keep in mind that for $350 you do get a gun that works reliably and is reasonably accurate. Is the fit and finish as good as it might be on a gun costing 3 or 4 times that amount? Of course not. It is a $350 gun. I also don't expect a Skoda or a Lada to be as nice as a BMW...
STI (and later SVI) have been making double stack 1911 for well over a decade. They are very popular with competition shooters.
It's not that they're mechanically complex, but rather the fact that parts aren't necessarily a drop-in fit. Replacement of the internal extactor, for one thing, always requires gunsmithing to ensure proper functioning. Other contemporary designs often have similar requirements for hand fitting- most of the major parts in a S&W revolver are fitted, for example.
Any of the 1911 builders, such as Hilton Yam or Larry Vickers, who build them for duty use will tell you that they generally require some gunsmith attention to perform at their best as well as more diligence on the part of the end user with regard to field maintenance. The days of the GI 1911, built to one spec to feed one type of ammo out of one type of magazine, are long gone.
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incorrigible
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
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If you're not sold on the value of the Armco tuning SFRC has the 1911 A1-C's in right now for about $350 and I think they have about 3 left.
ya, those get a lot of good press, which leads me to ask.....
why are your choices limited to just those two??? is there a unique feature that only those two have in your price bracket?
easyrider604
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Greater Vancouver, BC
Just my .02
I have two Norinco 1911A1s, a Gov't and a Sport. I had Colts and other 1911 makes in the past and sold them all when I decided to standardize on 357 magnum revolvers. But these Norkies are hard to resist hence these two live in the safe now.
The Sport is completely stock, the Gov't has cheap aftermarket trigger/hammer/drop-in beavertail. Sport has a heavy 6-7 pound trigger, the Gov't's lighter at 4-5 lb, both creepy and gritty.
They are functionally reliable with full power 230 grain LRN and 200 LSWC reloads. Slide-frame fits are loose but slide-to-barrel lock ups are tight, tighter than my Colts ever were (before the Colts were tuned).
Cannot really comment on their accuracy as I have not shot them enough to make a valid comment except to say that they shoot as well as (or as bad as) my stock Colts. I can keep most of 8 shots within an 8 x 11 sheet of paper at 25meters. This accuracy or lack of, is a reflection of the shooter rather than the pistols.
I do not shoot matches (not in 18 years), so for my range needs, these Norkies are adequate and I see no need to spend further on improving them. However, I will work on improving my 1911 skills as soon as I find more .45 brass and WW to cast bullets.
I notice that many of us get caught up in an equipment race that we forget that shooting is both a skill and technical sport. A good shooter can shoot a decent Norkie better than a lousy shooter with a Baer/Wilson/Kimber TOTL pistol.
I have two Norinco 1911A1s, a Gov't and a Sport. I had Colts and other 1911 makes in the past and sold them all when I decided to standardize on 357 magnum revolvers. But these Norkies are hard to resist hence these two live in the safe now.
The Sport is completely stock, the Gov't has cheap aftermarket trigger/hammer/drop-in beavertail. Sport has a heavy 6-7 pound trigger, the Gov't's lighter at 4-5 lb, both creepy and gritty.
They are functionally reliable with full power 230 grain LRN and 200 LSWC reloads. Slide-frame fits are loose but slide-to-barrel lock ups are tight, tighter than my Colts ever were (before the Colts were tuned).
Cannot really comment on their accuracy as I have not shot them enough to make a valid comment except to say that they shoot as well as (or as bad as) my stock Colts. I can keep most of 8 shots within an 8 x 11 sheet of paper at 25meters. This accuracy or lack of, is a reflection of the shooter rather than the pistols.
I do not shoot matches (not in 18 years), so for my range needs, these Norkies are adequate and I see no need to spend further on improving them. However, I will work on improving my 1911 skills as soon as I find more .45 brass and WW to cast bullets.
I notice that many of us get caught up in an equipment race that we forget that shooting is both a skill and technical sport. A good shooter can shoot a decent Norkie better than a lousy shooter with a Baer/Wilson/Kimber TOTL pistol.
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I'd buy a Norinco 1911 Commander, the new model, as shown below. For $597.42 you'd end up with a very nice forged frame pistol with all stainless parts, one piece guide rod, 18lb spring, etc.. (You can also get most of these parts for your Government models too).
i.e.,
Norinco 1911A1C 45ACP Commander 4.25" Barrel + 12% + $18.31 shipping = $428.52
Brownells
Stainless Rebuild Kit $15.26
087-000-045
18lb. Commander Recoil Spring $8.46
296-000-114
Comm. Full Length Guide Rod w/Plug $29.56
SKU #:100-003-247
==
$53.28
Fusion Parts:
1 Grip Screws & Bushings, Stainless, Set of 4 @ $4.99
1 1911 Commander Fusion Match SS Thick Flange Barrel Bushing NEW @ $16.95
1 Slide Stop - Stainless, Serrated @ $21.95
1 Thumb Safety, Extended Stainless @ $31.95
1 Magazine Catch 1911, Stainless Combat Checkered Bar-stock @ $19.95
==
$115.74
i.e.,
Norinco 1911A1C 45ACP Commander 4.25" Barrel + 12% + $18.31 shipping = $428.52
Brownells
Stainless Rebuild Kit $15.26
087-000-045
18lb. Commander Recoil Spring $8.46
296-000-114
Comm. Full Length Guide Rod w/Plug $29.56
SKU #:100-003-247
==
$53.28
Fusion Parts:
1 Grip Screws & Bushings, Stainless, Set of 4 @ $4.99
1 1911 Commander Fusion Match SS Thick Flange Barrel Bushing NEW @ $16.95
1 Slide Stop - Stainless, Serrated @ $21.95
1 Thumb Safety, Extended Stainless @ $31.95
1 Magazine Catch 1911, Stainless Combat Checkered Bar-stock @ $19.95
==
$115.74
