Parker Hale keyholing

[Potashminer]

But can you not push a hardcast over a more substantial powder charge vs a softer bullet thereby increasing velocity and potentially RPMs? Is my thinking off here? I’m sure once in flight softness vs hardness makes no difference at all.

I am not so sure that is true, but I never tried it - usually I played about hard versus soft lead alloys in regards to crap left in the bore (leading) - which turned out to be as much a function of the lube used (or not used), I think. For powder charging - not sure that pressure going to matter whether bullet is hard or soft - I think, at that point, it is bullet "weight" that matters, not the bullet hardness.

 

[Groverino]

I am not so sure that is true, but I never tried it - usually I played about hard versus soft lead alloys in regards to crap left in the bore (leading) - which turned out to be as much a function of the lube used (or not used), I think. For powder charging - not sure that pressure going to matter whether bullet is hard or soft - I think, at that point, it is bullet "weight" that matters, not the bullet hardness.

I’m not sure either I could be way off. I was just hoping something a little cheaper would work for practice besides the Hornadys because they’re pretty expensive. I guess I should stock up though because without them that rifle is a paperweight.

 

[cosmic]

If you want to get an idea of bore size, just make a plug gage that measures land to land. I made up a series of plug gages .303, .306, etc. They are threaded to match a cleaning rod. Having owned many 303's over the years, they have come in handy.
Regarding cast bullets, you should consider bumping up the diameter if the bore is determined to be oversize. The bullet RPM is low because there is insufficient grip to the rifling. Increasing the powder charge is unlikely to remedy.

 

[Potashminer]

I didn’t slug the bore I assumed the .314 cast would should since I have a ton of them and they shot so well in other rifles. I tried 16 gr of 2400 and 19 gr of 4198 with the cast.
I tried some old dominion rounds they also keyholed. Boat tail 174 gr Hornady did the same.
I should slug it I suppose but I have no intention of buying more cast for it.

Your loads are very low - page 277 - for #314299 cast bullet, Lyman 50 shows Suggested Starting Load as 15.5 grains 2400 powder (1404 fps in their test rifle) and Max 20.0 grains (1713 fps). For IMR-4198, they show 21.0 as Suggested Starting Load (1565 fps) and 28.0 grains as Max (1946 fps). I think "standard" military load was 174 grain at 2440 fps plus or minus 40 fps - not sure what war or country that was for, but those would have been jacketed bullets. An article by Mike Venturino some years ago listed #314299 as one of the cast bullets that he used a lot of in 303 British and similar sized milsurp rifles - I do not remember the powder or loading, though.

 

[Snider shooter]

My powder for cast loads is Alliant 2400. Currently using 18.6 grs. Your loads are definitely low. Most 303’s will show a sweet spot between 18 to 20 grs. I settled on 18.6 grs as that showed the best results in multiple 303’s. Lyman 314299 gas checked. I have used multiple types of lubes. Bullets are sized to 0.312. Your velocity is too slow with the long heavy bullet. At 18.6 grs your rear site should be set at about 450 to be on at 100, depending on the height of your front site. That’s shooting them in a No. 4. I expect 2” groups with that load.
I have acouple No. 4’s that shoot better with 20.6 grs.

 

[Groverino]

My powder for cast loads is Alliant 2400. Currently using 18.6 grs. Your loads are definitely low. Most 303’s will show a sweet spot between 18 to 20 grs. I settled on 18.6 grs as that showed the best results in multiple 303’s. Lyman 314299 gas checked. I have used multiple types of lubes. Bullets are sized to 0.312. Your velocity is too slow with the long heavy bullet. At 18.6 grs your rear site should be set at about 450 to be on at 100, depending on the height of your front site. That’s shooting them in a No. 4. I expect 2” groups with that load.
I have acouple No. 4’s that shoot better with 20.6 grs.

Okay I’m going to up the powder charge and report back. Thanks to all for their input!

 

[Groverino]

Your loads are very low - page 277 - for #314299 cast bullet, Lyman 50 shows Suggested Starting Load as 15.5 grains 2400 powder (1404 fps in their test rifle) and Max 20.0 grains (1713 fps). For IMR-4198, they show 21.0 as Suggested Starting Load (1565 fps) and 28.0 grains as Max (1946 fps). I think "standard" military load was 174 grain at 2440 fps plus or minus 40 fps - not sure what war or country that was for, but those would have been jacketed bullets. An article by Mike Venturino some years ago listed #314299 as one of the cast bullets that he used a lot of in 303 British and similar sized milsurp rifles - I do not remember the powder or loading, though.

I used to shoot the 314299 in a No 1 Lee Enfield and a bunch of different mosins. Shot great in everything until now.

 

[tiriaq]

Have you slugged the barrel?

 

[bearhunter]

The bullets are skipping over the rifling, likely due to an oversize bore - if the rifling is not worn. Hornady bullets are 0.312 with a flat base. Other brands are often 0.310/0.311 and have boat tails, which are much less likely to grip the rifling.

The original breech pressure spikes should be enough to obturate the bullet's cores enough to fill the bore.

H 414 is quite slow IMHO, for the bullets used by the OP.

Faster burning powders, such as IMR3031 would be about the fastest I would start with, then IMR4064, BLC2, or CFE223.

H414 would be suitable for 174-200 grain and heavier bullets IMHO.

I find most of my Lee Enfields and Enfields shoot best with 150 grain flat base bullets.

I've used the same cast bullets you tried, and didn't run them through a sizer, just left them as they came from the mold, then powder coated them.

For the powder coated cast lead, I used IMR4198/H335/IMR3031, and 8208XBR from an after market lot.

I used CCI 200 primers for most of these loads.

If you have an oversize bore, longer, boat tail bullets likely won't shoot well, but flat base, at close to max pressures, might be fine.

174 grain, .311-312 bullets used to be commonly available. Not so much any longer.

Bullet manufacturers seem to be trying to fill out demands for .310 diameter needs in the Mosins and expect them to work well in Lee Enfields.

The problem there is, both Mosins and Lee Enfields have bores from minimum spec diameter to maximum spec diameter.

I would love to see .312-313 diameter bullets on the shelves.

My bullets had a hardness factor of 22 on the BNH scale, measured with a Cabin Tree dimple impression.

One other thing to check out, while you check bore diameters, is throat diameter, as well as muzzle diameters.

I've had a couple of sporter barrels come in that had worn muzzles, from pull cords or just poor cleaning practices.

 

[Groverino]

The original breech pressure spikes should be enough to obturate the bullet's cores enough to fill the bore.

H 414 is quite slow IMHO, for the bullets used by the OP.

Faster burning powders, such as IMR3031 would be about the fastest I would start with, then IMR4064, BLC2, or CFE223.

H414 would be suitable for 174-200 grain and heavier bullets IMHO.

I find most of my Lee Enfields and Enfields shoot best with 150 grain flat base bullets.

I've used the same cast bullets you tried, and didn't run them through a sizer, just left them as they came from the mold, then powder coated them.

For the powder coated cast lead, I used IMR4198/H335/IMR3031, and 8208XBR from an after market lot.

I used CCI 200 primers for most of these loads.

If you have an oversize bore, longer, boat tail bullets likely won't shoot well, but flat base, at close to max pressures, might be fine.

174 grain, .311-312 bullets used to be commonly available. Not so much any longer.

Bullet manufacturers seem to be trying to fill out demands for .310 diameter needs in the Mosins and expect them to work well in Lee Enfields.

The problem there is, both Mosins and Lee Enfields have bores from minimum spec diameter to maximum spec diameter.

I would love to see .312-313 diameter bullets on the shelves.

My bullets had a hardness factor of 22 on the BNH scale, measured with a Cabin Tree dimple impression.

One other thing to check out, while you check bore diameters, is throat diameter, as well as muzzle diameters.

I've had a couple of sporter barrels come in that had worn muzzles, from pull cords or just poor cleaning practices.

I did the bullet test on the muzzle with a number of different rounds from .310 to .312 and it passed very well.
The H414 was used with jacketed .312 Hornady RN. They shot great at least in my opinion. I used N135 with the same bullet and also had good results. Alliant 2400 and imr 4198 were used with cast although my loads were quite low. I thought the cast would obturate as well but I may need to give them a bigger kick in the pants.
I’m not sure how to measure the chamber but I assume I need to learn how to make a cast?

 

[cosmic]

Why would you want to do a chamber cast? Its the bore you need to investigate.

 

[bearhunter]

I don't believe your chamber is an issue.

All comparing a bullet in the muzzle does is ensure there isn't a lot of wear, or the calibre is correct. It doesn't "measure" diameter.

When I mention measuring the throat, that's easy.

Just drop one of your cast bullets into the breech, tap it into the throat/leade with a dowel until it engages the leade, then past a bit. Tap it out with a cleaning rod and measure it with a micrometer.

 

[Groverino]

I don't believe your chamber is an issue.

All comparing a bullet in the muzzle does is ensure there isn't a lot of wear, or the calibre is correct. It doesn't "measure" diameter.

When I mention measuring the throat, that's easy.

Just drop one of your cast bullets into the breech, tap it into the throat/leade with a dowel until it engages the leade, then past a bit. Tap it out with a cleaning rod and measure it with a micrometer.

Oh okay thank you. I thought that would require a cast. I can do that easily enough.

 

[cosmic]

The fact that your old Dominion ammo keyholed is quite telling.

 

[Groverino]

The fact that your old Dominion ammo keyholed is quite telling.

Well I measured the bullets and they appeared to be .308 so I’d say results were as they should be.

 

[tokguy]

I've got a Winchester 94 in 38-55 that has the worst bore I seen.
Totally different beast. But I got it shooting again with a PL oversized bullet by hitting it with a faster powder to Bump up, but not enough to send it skipping over the rifling.
Don't know that this helps... but it's a method?

 

[kjohn]

Next to powder coating trials, one might consider paper patching. I did some many years ago, more for the need to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[Groverino]

I've got a Winchester 94 in 38-55 that has the worst bore I seen.
Totally different beast. But I got it shooting again with a PL oversized bullet by hitting it with a faster powder to Bump up, but not enough to send it skipping over the rifling.
Don't know that this helps... but it's a method?

Great idea. Next up is a bigger charge of 2400 and 4198