Pat Rogers "Tier 1" Guns
- Thread starter blueblast
- Start date
My understanding of tiers is of supply agreements. Like an automotive tier 1 supplier would be a company like Magna or Lear, for example. And a tier 2 supplier would supply the tier 1 suppliers and so forth. Comparing gun quality based on a USG supply chain is retarded.
It certainly would be...if that's what people were doing.
I doubt very much that guys like Pat Rogers believe there is a clear, hard boundary on the tiers...I would guess they grade the guns on a curve and say, "these manufacturers group at the top...these in the middle...these at the bottom."
Quibbling over terminology or technical definitions of the word "tier" is missing the point...there are various quality levels of AR. "Tiers 1-3" is just shorthand for people because nobody wants to say "this gun meets TDP in all areas except items 7 and 14, in which it deviates to the detriment of the rifle" because most people would have no idea what they were talking about.
I doubt very much that guys like Pat Rogers believe there is a clear, hard boundary on the tiers...I would guess they grade the guns on a curve and say, "these manufacturers group at the top...these in the middle...these at the bottom."
Quibbling over terminology or technical definitions of the word "tier" is missing the point...there are various quality levels of AR. "Tiers 1-3" is just shorthand for people because nobody wants to say "this gun meets TDP in all areas except items 7 and 14, in which it deviates to the detriment of the rifle" because most people would have no idea what they were talking about.
I read an article in Guns & Ammo Combat Arms 2009 where the author (Frank W. James) took a Pat Rogers Carbine Class.
It doesn't list names but it gave some examples. But unless it comes directly from Pat Rogers I would take it with a grain of salt.
According to the article Pat Rogers keeps several binders that documented and photographed every failure he has seen during his years of instruction. He goes by something his father told him, "Buy cheap; buy twice." The author states that Pat Rogers has divided most of the AR-15 manufacturers into the three tiers. Unfortunately he does not state how this was done and with what standards. The author points out that tier three being the most inexpensive is the most frequently seen in the binder.
The author states that he was using a LMT MRP and his class buddy pistolsmith #### Heinie was using a S&W M&P-15 carbine. He states that both are considered tier one under Pat Roger's classification. While not in the article one of the captions for one the photos states that #### Heinie also brought a Rock River Arms AR-15 carbine and that it was also considered tier one. The author states that they did not have any malfunctions of any kind throughout the course.
Pat Rogers according to the article states it takes approx. 1000 rounds to determine if the gun you have is going to run or not. And that to keep a high round count AR-15 running you should use lots of lubrication. The author states that Pat scolded him because he preferred to use as little as possible when concerning lubrication. Pat then proceeded with soaking his bolt and bolt carrier with lube. A soaking wet bolt will keep working but will be messy. Rogers then warned against petroleum based lubricants like CLP and recommends SLIP 2000.
I will take the article with a grain of salt as it comes second hand from a writer and not from Pat Rogers himself. However it was still insightful.
It doesn't list names but it gave some examples. But unless it comes directly from Pat Rogers I would take it with a grain of salt.
According to the article Pat Rogers keeps several binders that documented and photographed every failure he has seen during his years of instruction. He goes by something his father told him, "Buy cheap; buy twice." The author states that Pat Rogers has divided most of the AR-15 manufacturers into the three tiers. Unfortunately he does not state how this was done and with what standards. The author points out that tier three being the most inexpensive is the most frequently seen in the binder.
The author states that he was using a LMT MRP and his class buddy pistolsmith #### Heinie was using a S&W M&P-15 carbine. He states that both are considered tier one under Pat Roger's classification. While not in the article one of the captions for one the photos states that #### Heinie also brought a Rock River Arms AR-15 carbine and that it was also considered tier one. The author states that they did not have any malfunctions of any kind throughout the course.
Pat Rogers according to the article states it takes approx. 1000 rounds to determine if the gun you have is going to run or not. And that to keep a high round count AR-15 running you should use lots of lubrication. The author states that Pat scolded him because he preferred to use as little as possible when concerning lubrication. Pat then proceeded with soaking his bolt and bolt carrier with lube. A soaking wet bolt will keep working but will be messy. Rogers then warned against petroleum based lubricants like CLP and recommends SLIP 2000.
I will take the article with a grain of salt as it comes second hand from a writer and not from Pat Rogers himself. However it was still insightful.
Gun writers and trainers are not necessarily educated in supply chain/engineering/statistics, all that stuff. Remember some years ago the stopping power thing started by Marshall?
There is a whole bunch of factors - we can just read off the chart. However, you cannot read the "process" within the factory, and the quality control method. You cannot read the competency of their engineering staff and line workers. You cannot read the process they made engineering change orders and select their supplier. That's why certification such as ISO will help to provide assurance.
And remember - gun writers and some of the trainers got "free stuff". I probably will not put down my major advertiser's products as anything but tier-1. Just fruit for though. Hence, I stop reading gun rags long time ago.
Nail right on the head there, same thing I've experienced with car magazines, they will always place a positive spin on the product they are featuring, it's just the nature of the business. That's why I like to hear about things breaking, and that individual's hows and whys it has broken, usually address that shortfall and you've generally got a decent product.
Canada is a non market on the whole. With the information contained in the "how do you use your black rifle" poll where a large percentage of users shoot from the bench. Add to that the very small number of firearms owners who have sought out professional training, and the idea of catering to Canadians is a failure. The larger schools have less to lose especially those with a fixed location. The smaller schools and those that are mobile cannot afford to risk losing revenue by offering training for Canadians. Our lame 5 round mag limitations and limited approved ranges seriously hampers the potential for training.
Pat Rogers as well as several other well respected trainers will not train foreigners for their own reasons as well as state dept regs as was discussed earlier. As was mentioned, their courses are always full so their exclusion of Canadians(and other foreigners) has zero effect on their business. The same issues are present with regards to product as well. Too much of hassle to export and a near zero market.
TDC
mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Ammo - how many rounds have you put downrange??
Pretty easy to talk trash from behind a keyboard... If you wouldn't say it face to face you probably shouldn't say it here. There are folks who'll hand you your ass for running your soup-coolers.
Agreed. Being banned from an internet forum has little bearing on ones professional status/capabilities.
TDC
Given that Wrenchgod and I had over 20K though our Bushmaster M4s; a Tier 3 gun (back when ammo was cheap and plentiful) we can put the Tier system to better use.
Tier 1 a$$hole
Tier 1 Fata$$
Tier 1 Kool-Aid drinker
Tier 1 Troll
Tier 1 LE Basher
Tier 1 wannabe/mall ninja
...Perhaps we could even make a "Chart" of CGN members and rank their more colorful internet commando character traits...
Tier 1 a$$hole
Tier 1 Fata$$
Tier 1 Kool-Aid drinker
Tier 1 Troll
Tier 1 LE Basher
Tier 1 wannabe/mall ninja
...Perhaps we could even make a "Chart" of CGN members and rank their more colorful internet commando character traits...
Dirt McGirt
Regular
- Location
- 36 Chambers
dupe
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