Pattern Board Results - Adjustable Comb would you wouldn't you?

Devlin

Devlin

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I had a previous thread inquiring about whether or not to go and get an adjustable comb put onto my sporting clays/trap/skeet gun (yes I do all three with one), I like the gun and it fits me better than most others I've tried. I decided from the early thread to spend some time working on consistent gun mount and while not perfect I am better than I was a few months ago. The pictures below are from today, where I took three shots at the red dot indicated on each target through a full choke at 16 yards. I do feel some face slap from the gun that I don't experience when shooting my semi-auto (Benelli SBEII).

Interested in opinions on whether the face slap problem (minor) could be resolved through an adjustable comb, and if there is any improvement to be had on the results below with an adjustable comb?

Prior Thread - https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1515932-Aftermarket-Adjustable-Comb-Inquiry


Gun - Caesar Guerini Magnus Sporting - 30 inch barrels - Full Factory Choke
Ammo - Challenger 2 3/4", #8's , 1-1/8 oz


Results from Pattern Board

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Right hand side close up

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Left hand side close up

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The first question I would ask you you is, are you hitting the targets well in one or each discipline you are shooting with the proper choke for that game? If yes there is no real need to pattern in my opinion. When I had face slap problems with a new gun I practiced mounting in front of a mirror and check that you head is straight and eyes parallel, head not tipped over gun and seeing the proper space between the two sight beads. If you roll your head over the gun it will hit your cheek bone and hurt you. Also if eyes are not parallel your eyesight will not be optimum. Hope this helps.
 
I pattern at 35M. 16 yards for me is to close to accurately see what the shotgun/load will do at a proper target distance. From what I see, the shotgun does not fit you and shoots up and left. A properly fit shot gun will shoot where you look and NOT face slap you. You need to see someone that can adjust the stock for you for proper fit.
 
Thanks gents, appreciate the input. I'm an average shooter on trap and Skeet I'm low 20's average when I'm having a good day at the range. Sporting clays is a struggle for me but I enjoy the hell out of it and love making improvements.
 
Meant to add the reason behind my patterning at 16 yards was based off some advice from videos by Chris Batha and Gil Ash.

Will give it a go at longer distance and compare results, hope to get out again tomorrow.
 
Hey- I recognize that board! Looks like you are patterning very slightly to the left but personally I like the height of the lower targets- in the 60:40 high range. The upper targets are too high for my liking- although some guys shoot 90:10 trap guns. I like my pattern to be between 50:50 and 60:40- but this is a personal thing. It is more about knowing where your gun patterns and using it.

One thing I will say is that you aren't very consistent hitting the aim point. Your top left isn't even on the aim point. Practicing the mount and look will help with this. Seriously- try the bathroom mirror to see how well you get your eyes aligned to the barrel. The 4 patterns should be consistent with each other. The full choke at 16 is ok to see where you are pointing but doesn't tell you about how your patterns are.

Since you are close to a good fit- see if someone at your club can help you get your stock bent- you need just a little more cast to bring your patterns aligned to the target. Personally I would go that way vs the adjustable comb but adding one of those will allow you to do the same thing.
 
There are a great many other gun fitters beside Chris Batha and Gil Ash who recommend patterning at 16 yards with a tight choke for very good reason.
I'd stick with their advice.

From your patterns, I see inconsistent results, although the two that are high and left (top patterns) do stand out. I would suggest you return to the pattern board and shoot at least 10 patterns to derive a more statistically relevant result.

I applaud you in your search for both a proper gun fit and trying to perfect your mount. A few months, although showing improvement, is hardly enough ... some of us have been working on that for years ! To build sufficient "muscle memory" to achieve a good mount, some say at least 10,000 repetitions are necessary !!! Tiger Woods put in at least that much work when he first came to prominence ... and he, like other pros, are constantly working on their swing.

Beyond working on your stance, gun mount and swing, once you run through say,10 flats of ammunition, and subsequent re-patterning, you will have a much better understanding of where the gun is shooting compared to where you are looking.... and much more valuable practice in developing your gun mount. And the proper fitting gun for Trap is a different fit for Sporting & Skeet (which are similar, fit-wise). 

Challenger 1-1/8 loads to some are a little "snappy" ... you might try a 1 oz. load from another manufacturer, or even experiment with 24 gram ( 7/8 oz. approx.) loads.
I've been shooting them with very satisfactory results for more than 10 years. Do you get "face slap" when shooting at clay targets, or just when you are shooting at something stationary ? Are you getting your face down firmly on the comb, right under the zygomatic arch ? Every time, or most of the time/occasionally ? It is a very different thing for someone coming over from rifle shooting. Have you been coached by a good shooter that has some meaningful understanding of technique and gun fitting ? Be cautious of those all to willing to help. Their are all too many willing to do so, whether asked or not ... and their intentions are invariably good, however, their enthusiasm may overtake their knowledge. There are a lot of good shooters who are not good coaches ... and understand little of gun fitting... on the other hand, there are a few good coaches who are not great shooters, but do understand good technique and the elements of good fit.

In the long run, yes, an adjustable comb can be utilized to perfect fit ... adding or decreasing both comb height and angle, as well as adding cast off/ or cast on (if you are left handed) pitch and length of pull are two other factors that can effect gun mount). And Vic Tomlinson's work comes very highly recommended.

Good luck with your endeavours !
 
16 yard patterning will give you the POI. 13 yards is recommended by some. 32-40 yards will give you an idea of what the pattern looks like. Did you shoot all four of those targets without changing anything? I asked because there is a marked difference between the top left and the bottom right. I would say that you are shooting just about as flat as you want with a trap gun. My trap gun shoots at least 8 inches higher at 13 yards.
A four way adjustable comb would allow you to adjust that bit of left hand cast out of the stock and maybe raise the pattern a bit. It certainly doesn't need to shoot lower. However, if you break targets consistently with the gun as it is, leave it alone.
On the other hand, you mention face slap and casually dismiss it but it usually means a gun that doesn't fit correctly and an adjustable comb might cure that too. You shouldn't feel anything but a little recoil at the shoulder with a properly fitting shotgun.
Don't bend the stock until you are absolutely sure you need to.
 
Yes the plate is at Twin Cities Rifle Club, great club love it here.

Thanks for all the responses folks, yes lots more practice needed to perfect the art of shotgunning but I suppose very few of us actually ever perfect it. The face slap from the gun I get regularly which is what started this quest to improve how I and the gun work together. I do have some 1 oz loads but finding them in my area is like unicorn hunting some days, seems all most shops in the Kitchener area have on hand are the 1-1/8oz which I agree are a tad snappy, I do prefer the 1 oz loads when I can find them. More road trips to Hummasons which isn't a bad thing right ;-)

I will be out to shoot some more patterns hopefully tomorrow and see if I can establish a consistent pattern.

I've had others suggest a gracoil adjustable butt plate in combination with an adjustable comb to avoid having to have the stock bent which feels like a big step to take, not even sure I've heard of anyone skilled in doing this.

I really love the over/under guns and have tried several (Browning 725, and Beretta silver pigeon) but keep coming back to the Guerini and really do like it a lot and hope I can get it and myself squared away to be shooting better and more consistently. All this said I do shoot semi's better and more consistently, just prefer the over/under for the clay games. I'm a semi-serious shooter and while this isn't how I make a living and put food on the table it is something I want to improve at.
 
I prefer 13 yards to pattern for POI (point of impact). As noted above your targets are not consistent. I suspect that you are not consistent in mounting the gun in the same place each time.

Regarding cheek slap ... try putting a couple of flat washers on the top screw of the recoil pad between the pad and the wood. See what that does for you. If it helps, try three and then one flat washer. That usually corrects the slap problem. This is a temporary fix and you need to trim the stock or add a pitch spacer.

Hummason's in Ancaster have lots of shells in various loads at, usually, better prices.
 
Beretta687EELL said:
I prefer 13 yards to pattern for POI (point of impact). As noted above your targets are not consistent. I suspect that you are not consistent in mounting the gun in the same place each time.

Regarding cheek slap ... try putting a couple of flat washers on the top screw of the recoil pad between the pad and the wood. See what that does for you. If it helps, try three and then one flat washer. That usually corrects the slap problem. This is a temporary fix and you need to trim the stock or add a pitch spacer.

Hummason's in Ancaster have lots of shells in various loads at, usually, better prices.
Click to expand...
^^^^
This allowed me to determine that the pitch of my gun was not right for me.
I used some quarters for spacing instead of washers to determine how much pitch to add, but it cured the face slap. I am a bit barrel chested, and the only contact the gun had with my chest was with the bottom of the pad. Recoil was forcing it up into my face.
 
Patterns look high and left. An adjustable comb however may not be the answer as they typically can't be adjusted to lower patterns. What you may need is some wood taken off the top and left side of the comb to bring the pattern down.
 
Claybuster said:
Patterns look high and left. An adjustable comb however may not be the answer as they typically can't be adjusted to lower patterns. What you may need is some wood taken off the top and left side of the comb to bring the pattern down.
Click to expand...

When the installer cuts the stock to install an adjustable comb, it removes material, which allows the comb to be adjusted lower than factory height. You can also move the comb slightly to the side, which may help in this case.
 
Claybuster said:
Patterns look high and left. An adjustable comb however may not be the answer as they typically can't be adjusted to lower patterns. What you may need is some wood taken off the top and left side of the comb to bring the pattern down.
Click to expand...

An interesting set of circumstances just unfolded as I posted this query in a Facebook group about Clay Shooting in the states to get input there as well. Low and behold Gil Ash is actually a member of the group and started replying to my post as well and essentially offered the same advice after some questions back and forth with Gil, he too recommended removing some wood from the stock to sort things out. Now to get over the whole taking a sander and file to the stock nerves and get on with shooting better, which is the goal here...

<SNIP of Gil's reply>
You will never get consistent impact low gun with that much cheek pressure. Ok here is what I recommend.

Have someone narrow the comb by sanding it off or cutting with a rasp with you in the shop to continue to try it and when you mount the gun with slight cheek pressure and you are flat down the rib no bunny no figure 8 but flat the gun will shoot for you and you will be more consistent in your results. If I were doing it I would put 3/16 off set in the comb and come 2 3/4" down into the face of the stock and roll the stock over to the new center line.

Most would be afraid to do something like this but I do it every day. A moveable comb/ butt plate will not solve this problem. In order for a movable comb to work the stock must be too low so it can be raised to proper dimensions. Then and only then can you use all the cast dimension necessary to make the gun fit! Check out our forum on Shotgun World and you will see what I am talking about.


</END SNIP>
 
Devlin said:
An interesting set of circumstances just unfolded as I posted this query in a Facebook group about Clay Shooting in the states to get input there as well. Low and behold Gil Ash is actually a member of the group and started replying to my post as well and essentially offered the same advice after some questions back and forth with Gil, he too recommended removing some wood from the stock to sort things out. Now to get over the whole taking a sander and file to the stock nerves and get on with shooting better, which is the goal here...
Click to expand...

I went with installing adjustable combs to lower the point of impact because it was likely actually cheaper than having both stock and fore end refinished after filing the comb to fit. If you don't care about maintaining a matching finish,then file away.
 
hnachaj1 said:
I pattern at 35M. 16 yards for me is to close to accurately see what the shotgun/load will do at a proper target distance. From what I see, the shotgun does not fit you and shoots up and left. A properly fit shot gun will shoot where you look and NOT face slap you. You need to see someone that can adjust the stock for you for proper fit.
Click to expand...

How many inches would say Bretta allow POI to be off?
 
Devlin said:
Now to get over the whole taking a sander and file to the stock nerves and get on with shooting better, which is the goal here...
Click to expand...
According to Robert Churchill who pioneered patterning at 16 yards a 1/16" adjustment in the stock will result in a 1" pattern change at that distance. If you are going to do the sanding yourself do it in small increments until you get the pattern where you want it and then refinish the wood. If you don't want to to do the work yourself ask around the club for recommendations on who can do the stock work.
 
Looks to me like POI isn't acceptable from the factory the hight is ok imo. If the comb doesn't need to be adjusted sideways for fit it would be a poor choice to correct the pattern back to the right using an adj comb.

Are you left or right handed?

Could be that full tube as well
 
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stubblejumper said:
When the installer cuts the stock to install an adjustable comb, it removes material, which allows the comb to be adjusted lower than factory height. You can also move the comb slightly to the side, which may help in this case.
Click to expand...
Interesting. I've owned three adjustable stocks (two factory and one aftermarket) and have never seen one that could be lowered more than the natural comb of the original stock. Do these installers lower the entire comb?
 
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