Pedersoli's 1873 Springfields
- Thread starter sail32
- Start date
"Guns of the West", Fall 2007, has a article on the Pedersoli 1873 carbine.
"Shoot Magazine", Volume 9 Feburary / March 2001, has the second part of an article on Pat & J.S. Wolf's reloading book and mentions the Pedersolis. I am looking for volume 8, December / January, 2000 & 2001.
"trapdoorcollector.com", in the search section of their bulletin, you will find some information on Pedersolis, also check some of the black powder cartridge rifle web pages, etc.
"Shoot Magazine", Volume 9 Feburary / March 2001, has the second part of an article on Pat & J.S. Wolf's reloading book and mentions the Pedersolis. I am looking for volume 8, December / January, 2000 & 2001.
"trapdoorcollector.com", in the search section of their bulletin, you will find some information on Pedersolis, also check some of the black powder cartridge rifle web pages, etc.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Help me out a little
. How much difference is there between the 1873 and the 1874? Part of the reason I ask is I'm 'working' on obtaining the following one from a shooting buddy of mine. As it stands at present, I have the loan of it
for an unlimited period of time.
. How much difference is there between the 1873 and the 1874? Part of the reason I ask is I'm 'working' on obtaining the following one from a shooting buddy of mine. As it stands at present, I have the loan of it for an unlimited period of time.
The picture is of a Pedersoli (?) 1874 Sharps. Go to Marstar's site and look up the Pedersoli replicas they carry or go to " www.trapdoorcollector.com ". The actions for the 1873 Springfield is completley different for the Sharps.
The 73's are a trapdoor Springfield replica, and the 74's are a Sharps side hammer replica. The Sharps is a much stronger action, but the Springfields are fun to play with. I wouldn't go beyond std BP ballistics with one though. - dan
Sir, and all - Pedersoli's Sharps rifles are proofed for ALL .45-70 Gubmint loads, up to and including the standard 300gr JHP nitro-loads. So are their Trapdoor replications.
The older Harrington & Richardson replicas - rifle and carbine - are not so proofed, and are recommended to be shot only with BP loads with lead bullets only, although you CAN shoot the heavier 405gr bullet.
tac
I think that is a bit misleading; factory made 45-70 shells are loaded so that they can be shot in all rifles including trapdoors whether original or not (assuming in good repair). I am not sure whether that statement applies to the new leverution shells with light bullets and much higher velocities.
The important thing to note is that loading tables have three levels of loading with the lowest levels being for trapdoor springfields. Sharps rifles both original and modern have a stronger design but the sharp corners where the sides of the receiver sort of wraps around the breach block I think would make them less strong than say a Ruger # 1 where the sides of the receiver come straight back.
cheers mooncoon
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Thanks for the basic description difference between the two. I've never paid much attention to either until I got the long term 'loan' of the one pictured earlier.Sir - the instructions with the Harrington & Richardson Trapdoor replicas categorically state that they are suitable for lead bullets only - NOT for jacketed ammunition. This might have been as a result of them blowing the action open - an embarrassing little problem that seems to have affected them from time to time by those using modern high-falutin' cartridges.
Of course, those factory-made cartridges you noted for the .45-70 include both semi- and fully jacketed bullets, neither of which I would care to shoot in MY original Trapdoor Springfield. But please go ahead, and let me know how you get on.
Best
tac
The original trapdoors were percussion and paper cartridge, and then converted to cartridge, 50-70 if memory serves (been a while since I played with one). 45-70 came later yet. They are a pretty weak action, as I've said. Regular factory ammo is loaded to pressures usable in even these weak actions, for liability reasons. There are some hot 45-70 loads out there, but they have disclaimers on the boxes usually. You can load with smokeless powders, but you need to be careful. Read Ken waters multi part articles on 45-70's and their various strengths. BP is fun, and safe in these guns, but in a trapdoor, even that can cause problems once the fouling gets too bad. The Sharps is definitely a step up in action strength, and yes, a Ruger is stronger then that. One of the strongest of the old actions is the Remington rolling block, which makes a nice 45-70 (or 50-70 as i have). FWIW - dan
Sorry Dan...just a bit of lineage information on the trapdoor.
The first Model Allin's Conversion was a modification of a civil war musket. The Springfield Armory added about 45 new parts in approximately 80 machining operations to produce a breech-loading rifle in caliber 58 rimfire, of whihc there were 500 made in 1865.
I 1866 the Armory decided to reduce the caliber to 50 and simplify the breech-loading mechanism, yet still utilizing the surplus civil war muskets. They bored out the 58 caliber musket barrel to 70 caliber and brazed a 50 caliber liner into it then chambered it for the new 50-70-450 inside primed cartridge. This was the rifle used at the "Wagon Box Fight" in around 1867. There were approximately 50,000 Model 1866 Second Allin's Conversions made.
The next Model was the Model 1868, which was the first breech loading trapdoor to have a newly manufactured receiver, chambered in 50-70-450 yet it still used the Civil War musket stock. There were also carbine made in this variation though just a handful
It was followed by the Model 1870, which was also 50-70-450, though had a slightly shorter receiver and was not serial numbered.
The first 45-70 trapdoor were the Model 1873, which remained in production with numerous improvements till 1893.
Cheers
Thx Alonzo. I guess my memory is getting worse, lol. - dan
Bittermansbro
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
ITs ok Dan, same here. As long as you can keep pulling the trigger and enjoy it when you do, thats whats important!
I have a 1891 manufactured Ramrod Trapdoor which shoots like a dickens and I find it quite enjoyable, especially competing with the modern Sharps folks.
I definitely recommend getting one, its fun and unique and all that.
I have a 1891 manufactured Ramrod Trapdoor which shoots like a dickens and I find it quite enjoyable, especially competing with the modern Sharps folks.
I definitely recommend getting one, its fun and unique and all that.
That statement more or less contradicts your first statement that the guns are safe for all (factory) loads. I don't think I have ever seen a post 1960 factory load that was not jacketed (half jacket). Further in the last year or two a "leverution" cartridge has come out with a 300 or so grain jacketed bullet and a much higher velocity. No pressures are listed on the box and without knowledgeable information to the contrary, I would not use them in a trapdoor. I suspect they were made for Marlin rifles with a stronger action. A friend did shoot some through his original trapdoor recently but that does not mean that it is recommended.
I have shot a few jacketed bullets through original trapdoors and would not hesitate to shoot more except for the price. I find it hard to believe that modern H&R rifles would be weaker or more wear prone than originals and am surprised that they apparently indicate not shooting what used to be the only factory loaded shells in their guns, particularly when those shells used to say safe for use in trapdoors or something similar.
cheers mooncoon
The standard 45-70 Gov.t load for the Original Springfield Trap Door Rifle is 70grns of black powder and a 405grn lead bullet
The carbine's standard load was 55grns of black powder with a 405 lead bullet not a 300 grn
There was either a warning posted or a recall on the H&R trapdoor replicas due to the block blowing open when discharged.I had printed out the required modifications for a friend (it is available on line if you look for it)
The carbine's standard load was 55grns of black powder with a 405 lead bullet not a 300 grn
There was either a warning posted or a recall on the H&R trapdoor replicas due to the block blowing open when discharged.I had printed out the required modifications for a friend (it is available on line if you look for it)
I found this and there is a link to the repair at the end.
The fault is in how the locking cam is attached to the thumb piece. On the H&R the shaft of the cam where it connects to the thumb piece is round and held in place by a set screw. The original is a square shaft fit into a square hole. It has been reported that the set screw on the H&Rs can loosen and allow the shaft to rotate slightly and lose it's "timing". If it's off far enough, the breech block won't lock down. If it's off slightly, the breech block will stay down but won't be locked securely. When the hammer is dropped on a live round in this condition the breech block will fly open, sometimes with catastrophic results. Hammers have broken and breech blocks became UFOs. Some people who shoot them regularly drill and pin the thumb latch to the locking cam shaft to eliminate this possibility. Others have fitted original Trapdoor parts to their H&Rs. If you're going to shoot them, be aware of this.
Here is addy for the repair
http://shootingwithhobie.########.com/2009/08/modern-trapdoors.html[/url]
The fault is in how the locking cam is attached to the thumb piece. On the H&R the shaft of the cam where it connects to the thumb piece is round and held in place by a set screw. The original is a square shaft fit into a square hole. It has been reported that the set screw on the H&Rs can loosen and allow the shaft to rotate slightly and lose it's "timing". If it's off far enough, the breech block won't lock down. If it's off slightly, the breech block will stay down but won't be locked securely. When the hammer is dropped on a live round in this condition the breech block will fly open, sometimes with catastrophic results. Hammers have broken and breech blocks became UFOs. Some people who shoot them regularly drill and pin the thumb latch to the locking cam shaft to eliminate this possibility. Others have fitted original Trapdoor parts to their H&Rs. If you're going to shoot them, be aware of this.
Here is addy for the repair
http://shootingwithhobie.########.com/2009/08/modern-trapdoors.html[/url]
You can still get a good original for about the same price as a replica. Even though most of the ones on CGN seem to be rather pricey....
Marstar had one last year for $750, I believe, and it was in good shape. The ones with the Buffington rear sight are the most fun, it's too bad they didn't make it an option on the replica.If you find an all original one for less than a $1000.00 grab it as the average prices in real good original condition will usually run between $1300.00 and $2500.00 based on year of manufacture and serial number.I have an 84 right now that has had the wood cut back with a real nice bore and its going to be for sale for $550.00
Check out rock Island auctions to find the average prices
Check out rock Island auctions to find the average prices
