Percussion to Flintlock Coversion?

I just gave this another think and decided that it would be darn near impossible to convert one of these, the barrels overhang the lock plates by at least 1/4"-1/8"

Pedersoli-SXS-3.jpg


honestly the only way I can see converting that over would be to widen the stock!

It also appears to have a hooked patent breech, they would need to be cut off and something else fabricated
 
tiriaq said:
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Draw an imaginary line extending the face of the lockplate up into the barrel breeches. You can see that breechplugs relieved to allow the lockplates and flashpans to lie against them could be fitted. The photo could even be printed off and actual pencil lines drawn.
This could be done with the CVA as well, I think.
Real problem with the Pedersoli.
Early double guns were full width, with the locks lying against the full diameter of the barrels. Made for very wide guns, with dramatic reduction in width into the grip.
Later flint doubles had recessed breeches, tapered to the rear, so that the contour was much more graceful.
In the case of the Pietta, this would require new plugs with reduced diameter powder chambers, so that the sides of the plugs could be flattened, while still maintaining adequate wall thickness. Couldn't be done with the Pedersoli, unless, perhaps, the powder chambers were very small in diameter.
 
tiriaq said:
Draw an imaginary line extending the face of the lockplate up into the barrel breeches. You can see that breechplugs relieved to allow the lockplates and flashpans to lie against them could be fitted. The photo could even be printed off and actual pencil lines drawn.
This could be done with the CVA as well, I think.
Real problem with the Pedersoli.
Early double guns were full width, with the locks lying against the full diameter of the barrels. Made for very wide guns, with dramatic reduction in width into the grip.
Later flint doubles had recessed breeches, tapered to the rear, so that the contour was much more graceful.
In the case of the Pietta, this would require new plugs with reduced diameter powder chambers, so that the sides of the plugs could be flattened, while still maintaining adequate wall thickness. Couldn't be done with the Pedersoli, unless, perhaps, the powder chambers were very small in diameter.
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I'm kind of wondering if new breech plugs were made that incorporated a small pan and frizzon (frizzen??!!?) The only change to the lock would be new hammers that were bent outwards ?? might be ugly as sin..
 
Here is an extreme example of width because of the locks being set against the sides of the barrels. The gun is flint converted to percussion; if the locks were still flint, the overall width would have been truly dramatic.

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This is a big gun. It is gunsmith made. Based on measurements, I believe that the barrels are a pair from Brown Bess muskets. Lockplate to lockplate, it is 3" wide. Weighs about 14 pounds. Buttplate appears to have been salvaged from a Long Land pattern musket. The locks are much later than the barrels and other parts. Pretty sure the gun is Canadian gunsmith made, using available parts. I suspect it was used for market hunting, firing on sitting flocks.
 

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Hey Sean69 and Tiriaq,

Thanks so much for your continued replies!

I guess the best thing to do is wait for Pedersoil to come out with a a flint version or wait and see if David Price makes more kits.

Thanks again! If you end up finding some gunsmith-able solutions, totally post or private message me :)

Take care everyone!
Cheers,
Kevin H.
 
I have long thought that I would like to have a shooting double flintlock. Have a copy of Brockway's book; a diy is one option.
Then I saw the photos of NoDeer's conversion, and thought that looked interesting. The Navy Arms/Pietta came along, and I bought it. It is a nice gun; almost a shame to tear into it. Next step would be to buy a pair of L&R locks. They would cost about as much as the gun did. So, the project is hanging fire...
 
kevinh said:
Hey y'all,


Found this, but you guys might already know.

https://pioneerarms.com/swivel_breech.html


Also, the other day I learned about the Ferguson Rifle.
Have you heard of these design.

I think this business is selling new copy parts.

http://www.therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/english_arms/(513).htm


Cheers!
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Yes, I have seen the pioneer arms site before, but no other information on his swivels on any other muzzle loading forum, I kinda got the impression that he was retired (or dead) or something... couldn't hurt to call.

Yes, the rifle shoppe has quite a good reputation for accuracy and quality - shipping quickly, well not so much. And yes those are new manufacture parts.
 
Hey Sean69,

Thanks again for your replies!

What do you think about the Ferguson Rifle design?
Any reasons why breech loading flintlock rifles are not as common?

Cheers,
Kevin H.
 
Breechloading flintlock rifles weren't common because of cost, which was related to the problem of creating a more or less gas tight breech. The Ferguson worked, but was expensive, and required careful management. The LaChaumette system was similar, but simpler - the vertical breechplug unscrewed for loading. If you search, you will likely find reports of modern Ferguson reproductions being used; the system does work, and gas leakage is minimal. The fitting of the breech parts is critical.
About the only flintlock made in significant numbers was the US Hall rifle, which was in service in both flint and percussion versions for years. Apparently these are an adventure to fire, with significant leakage. There are even openings in the stock near the breech, to prevent the released gas from damaging the stock. The Hall was also the first US service rifle made with interchangeable parts.
In the 17th century, there were flintlock pistols and carbines (some rifled) which were breechloading, using turn-off barrels. Unscrew the barrel, pour a charge of powder in the breech, set a ball on top, screw the barrel back on. They worked and had a reputation for accuracy. Same system as used on Queen Anne pistols, and numerous pocket pistols into the mid 19th century.
 
kevinh said:
Hey Sean69,

Thanks again for your replies!

What do you think about the Ferguson Rifle design?
Any reasons why breech loading flintlock rifles are not as common?

Cheers,
Kevin H.
Click to expand...

I think tiriaq pretty much covered breech loading - they were not super practical until metallic cartridges came along.

The Ferguson? definitely neat, would like to play around with one for a bit, but not interested enough to pop $2k+++ for one.
 
One of the weaknesses of the ferguson was that the stock was a fragile around the lock and breechloading mechanism do to the amount of wood removed to fit the action.This is why most of the originals are found cracked in this area.I kind of like this breech loader made by the famous gunsmith E Baker and it can be yours if you have $19000 US to spend

image.jpg


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do you rotate the breach twice to load ? put a ball in , rotate forward so that it drops into the barrel then rotate up fill with powder and rotate forward again ? Looks like the powder charge would be quite light by the standards of the day

cheers mooncoon
 
It would operate similar to a ferguson, drop the breech roll, point muzzle onward the ground,insert the ball then powder charge Then rotate the lever closed.This would work on the same principle as the ferguson load wise and the chamber would be cut for the appropriate hunting charge for the caliber
 
mooncoon said:
do you rotate the breach twice to load ? put a ball in , rotate forward so that it drops into the barrel then rotate up fill with powder and rotate forward again ? Looks like the powder charge would be quite light by the standards of the day

cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...


I know I've seen something with a similar action - not sure where, maybe cap and ball??? but this particular one:

https://vimeo.com/345513214
 
Believe it or not it was on pawn stars.I think they had a fake seller as pawn stars supposedly bought it but IMA owns it and is selling it now for a lower price than pawn stars bought it for.On top of that it was the IMA president who was their so called expert who test fired the gun for them so basically it was just free advertising for the gun.That said it is a neat gun and I would love to own it if I had deep pockets.Their is a video of it being shot on the IMA website
 
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Hey tiriaq, thanks for your very descriptive reply/info sharing!

sean69, hehe, yep 2K+ is quite a bit and thanks for sharing the link!

Hey chasseur, thanks so much for sharing the Baker design/photos!
I did some research and I hear people who made a Ferguson rifle from a kit say they used fiber glass to reinforce that area prone to failing.
Not sure how much it helps tho :(


Thanks again everyone!
Hope you all are having a great weekend!
 
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