Percussion to Flintlock Coversion?

chasseur said:
It would operate similar to a ferguson, drop the breech roll, point muzzle onward the ground,insert the ball then powder charge Then rotate the lever closed.This would work on the same principle as the ferguson load wise and the chamber would be cut for the appropriate hunting charge for the caliber
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I didn't watch the full Pawnstars video, but what strikes me is that the breach system would only hold 30 or 40 grains at a guess and definitely not a useful powder charge plus ball. To be useful you would have to load it in two steps. The Ferguson differs in that the breach screws open and you can drop in a ball plus however much powder the gun was chambered for, then screw it closed.

A bit of a departure from the original thread but what has puzzled me for some time, is how do you cut a thread of 1 or 2 threads per inch on a modern conventional lathe ( for a Ferguson breach)
 
Could the gear train on a manual lathe be set up to move the carriage one turn in perhaps 7/8ths of an inch? Cutting both internal and external threads would require a lot of shaving cuts, followed by lapping the breech and screw together. The multiple threads wouldn't make the job any easier.
I suppose a sophisticated CNC machining center could be programmed to cut the threads.

The Baker rifle's breech is akin to a tap action pocket pistol. I suppose the drum could be cut and the breech reamed with a slight taper, and then lapped. That would also allow a bit of compensation for wear.
 
tiriaq said:
Could the gear train on a manual lathe be set up to move the carriage one turn in perhaps 7/8ths of an inch? Cutting both internal and external threads would require a lot of shaving cuts, followed by lapping the breech and screw together. The multiple threads wouldn't make the job any easier.
I suppose a sophisticated CNC machining center could be programmed to cut the threads.

The Baker rifle's breech is akin to a tap action pocket pistol. I suppose the drum could be cut and the breech reamed with a slight taper, and then lapped. That would also allow a bit of compensation for wear.
Click to expand...

My thought on the Ferguson was to thread a long piece of 4140 to the pitch and grooves that I wanted then cut it in half and harden one half to make a tap. Probably have to have a long taper on the tap in order to be able to turn in.

cheers mooncoon
 
More of a rotary broach than a tap?
Found photos of an original. 10 threads. Other photos seem to show 11.
 
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Hey, Sail32,

Thanks so much for the links.

I'm not sure yet if I want to subscribe to the archive, maybe I can post on some other forums to see how much a Ferguson costs.
(american long rifle forums as an example).

I did go over the catalog, wow, so much things one can buy!


Yes, thank you so much for the Ferguson Kit link (I emailed them on Friday to see if they still sell them).


So, may I ask if anyone knows how much one would have to spend to get a kit rifle (like the Ferguson) built?
I have no idea what so ever on how much that kind of work/service costs.

Thanks everyone!
Have a great new week
Stay safe

Cheers!
 
Well, there is the explanation of how to cut both the breech and plug threads using the same indexing setup, once the lathe has been geared for 1 turn in 7/8". Total of four hours machine time once the setup is in place isn't bad at all.
 
mooncoon said:
I didn't watch the full Pawnstars video, but what strikes me is that the breach system would only hold 30 or 40 grains at a guess and definitely not a useful powder charge plus ball. To be useful you would have to load it in two steps. The Ferguson differs in that the breach screws open and you can drop in a ball plus however much powder the gun was chambered for, then screw it closed.

A bit of a departure from the original thread but what has puzzled me for some time, is how do you cut a thread of 1 or 2 threads per inch on a modern conventional lathe ( for a Ferguson breach)
Click to expand...

tiriaq said:
Could the gear train on a manual lathe be set up to move the carriage one turn in perhaps 7/8ths of an inch? Cutting both internal and external threads would require a lot of shaving cuts, followed by lapping the breech and screw together. The multiple threads wouldn't make the job any easier.
I suppose a sophisticated CNC machining center could be programmed to cut the threads.

The Baker rifle's breech is akin to a tap action pocket pistol. I suppose the drum could be cut and the breech reamed with a slight taper, and then lapped. That would also allow a bit of compensation for wear.
Click to expand...

My Atlas will cut 4tpi with the QC gearbox - I've had to change out gears before to get odd pitches that the QC gearbox won't cut - so I don't see an issue getting 2 or 3 tpi. You could do the "receiver" the same way just an internal version. Though to add to the fun those look like square (not acme) cut threads.
 
One turn of the guard lowers the plug about 7/8", a bit less than 1 tpi. That is going to require some interesting gearing.
Then again, having to turn the guard 4 turns to open the breech wouldn't be the end of the world.
I wonder how the breeches were made in the 18th century?
 
tiriaq said:
One turn of the guard lowers the plug about 7/8", a bit less than 1 tpi. That is going to require some interesting gearing.
Then again, having to turn the guard 4 turns to open the breech wouldn't be the end of the world.
I wonder how the breeches were made in the 18th century?
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I think they must have used a purpose built lathe. The pictures that I have seen appeared to show a square thread with a rounded end rather than a true square thread. I think my lathe with a quick change box only goes to 8 threads per inch and it would take me a while to figure out what gear ration to drop that down to 1 thread per inch (or 7/8 per inch)

cheers mooncoon
 
From wikipedia:

"The breech of the weapon is closed by 11 starting threads on a tapered screw, and the trigger guard serves as the crank to rotate it. One complete turn dropped the screw low enough to drop a round ball into the exposed breech followed by a slight overcharge of powder, which was then sheared to the proper charge by the screw as it closed the breech."

I'd like to know what they mean by "11 starting threads"
 
yea - so it gets a lot more interesting ... that is 11 (sometimes 10 apparently) 2 or 3 tpi threads cut in there - this one has the anti-fouling cut in it. and those threads do not appear to be square (not sure where I got that from)

dsc_0655.jpg
 
There are 10-11-12 (depending on source) threads, that make one turn in about 7/8ths of an inch. Imagine a single lonely thread winding around the plug. Rotate the piece 30 degrees, cut another thread. Keep going, you wind up with a 12 thread plug.
2 tpi would drop the plug half an inch with one turn; 3 tpi, a third of an inch. The Ferguson plug has to drop the thickness of the barrel wall, plus the chamber diameter, in one turn, hence about 7/8".
A slight taper would assist with sealing.
Years ago I remember reading about someone making a Ferguson and he constructed a rig to cut the breech threads that was akin to a rifling machine, with a very fast twist. Scrape cut the grooves.
Also years ago, I saw the remains of a Ferguson barreled action, one of the issue pattern rifles. It had surfaced in the Niagara region. Here is my theory how a Ferguson might have mad its way to Upper Canada...
After Ferguson's unit was re-equipped with muskets, what would have been done with the rifles? They wouldn't have been wanted for regular infantry. Supply them to irregulars? Butler's Rangers settled in Niagara after the end of the Revolutionary War. Possible?
I don't know off hand what the fastest pitch my 1340 Standard Modern cuts, or what it would take to try for 1 in 7/8". Spindle would be turning very slowly while the leadscrew spins.
 
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sean69 said:
From wikipedia:

I'd like to know what they mean by "11 starting threads"
Click to expand...

multiple threads mean several threads winding in parallel along the hole or the bolt which screws into it. They are used to reduce the depth of the threads for example some people use a double thread for choke tubes installed in thin shotgun barrels. They have the same grip as a single thread but 1/2 the depth of a single thread.

A single thread of 1 turn in 7/8" would be extremely deep; just under 1/2" deep (7/16" ) if my math is correct. I think most lathes have a thread counter on them so that you start at the same point with each pass. Mine has 4 number marks plus 1/2 marks and that would allow me to cut 1, 2, 4 or 8 parallel threads with it.

cheers mooncoon
 
Hey people,

I found two Ferguson rifles for sale.

Don't have details yet for the first one, but the second one is Narragansett Arms one.

Do any of you know the difference between Narragansett Arms example vs a Rfile Shoppe kit rifle?
The second one I found, the price is inline with buying a kit and having someone build it.

Thank so much in advance!
Have a great day!
Cheers,
Kevin H.
 
The Narragansett arms gun was built from rifle shoppe parts.In fact that's how the ball started rolling as Narransett arms commissioned the rifle shoppe to make up parts for 250 fergusons.They normally come with a stand and a bayonett.Quality usually was excellent I believe but eventually I think the ownership of the company changed hands and they eventually ran into problems and went bankrupt
 
Hey Chasseur,

Wonderful, thank so much for your help/time!

I think I might bite down and buy this Ferguson :)

If I do get it, I will post photos/videos :)

Cheers,
Kevin
 
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