How pertinent are they when trying to attain the smallest group possible as a shooter? I understand their utility when trying to figure out the best load for your rifle, but otherwise, are they really relevant? What i mean is, if your rifle is hanging on bags/bi-pod in the front and bags/mono-pod in the rear, and all you do is pull the trigger, then you are not really shooting your rifle. Follow me? How can someone brag of a small of of no matter how many rounds, when they use rear support? Seems to me that , that person didn't really do a say .3moa group; his rifle did the group. I don't think it really says much about the shooter's ability.Discuss...
Pertinence of rear support/rests/bags
- Thread starter TheCanuck
- Start date
What i'm trying to say is you are not really able to shoot .3moa if you require to not touch your rifle in any other way than pulling the trigger to accomplish it.
To me, matches that allow you to use use rear support, are ridiculous. It's not a shooter's competition, it's an equipment race. Might as well have the guys just call wind speed and whoever is closest wins, and if theres a tie, whoever has the biggest bank account wins
To me, matches that allow you to use use rear support, are ridiculous. It's not a shooter's competition, it's an equipment race. Might as well have the guys just call wind speed and whoever is closest wins, and if theres a tie, whoever has the biggest bank account wins
Shelldrake
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Right behind you,,
Sniper matches have always allowed for a front and a rear rest. There is more to it than just pulling the trigger,, even when you have a front rest and a rear bag/pod.
As for cost? The bigger bank account normally has the advantage anyway,, even if you took away the rear bag.
As for cost? The bigger bank account normally has the advantage anyway,, even if you took away the rear bag.
TheCanuck said:
No one is forcing you to use a rear rest, nor is anyone forcing you to use a front rest, nor a telescope..... how about just standing up and using non adjustable iron sights....?
There are different degrees of accuracy obtained by different methods of shooting.
.3 moa is not accomplished just by resting your rifle on bags.
Personally,
it still depends on what you want to achieve. I see your point about the rests and matches. How do you know your gun is properly tuned it could just be luck! I personally feel that a lot of the small groups that we hear about are just that LUCK!
If you want to know the full potential of the gun then you require the use of very sturdy front and rear rests. If not, you are just fooling yourself and chasing your tail like a dog in load development. How do you know that the load you have developed is THE LOAD? You won't unless the rests are used.
Like Oscar said in the other thread and if you want to see your groups shrink more then you better pull out the windflagsand learn to read the conditions. I am very new to windflags and reading wind but I see exactly what it can do for you. After you know that the load is the best you can find for the gun then you can shoot however you want. You know then that your gun is tuned to its max potential. Whatever happens to your groups after that time you can blame only yourself for the pulled shots. This taking in that your optics are rock solid.
I aso feel that the magnification of the scope will make a big difference on group sizes. The more the power the better. Set your target up and compare a 3-9 with a 5-15 and move on up to a 6.5 -20. See what I am getting at? You are able to get a better bead at what your are aiming at. I have a 5-15 on my 6BR and am waiting for a 36X Weaver to put on top of it. This is just so I can test the true potential of the gun and my loads. Using a high power magnification scope also introduces another factor mirage. This is something else that I will have to contend with. I feel that if I want to become better I have to be able to overcome this.
This would be a interesting thought. If you want to seperate the men from the boys then it should be a match where only one gun is used for all competitors. They only difference will be the shooter. The gun is tuned to the max. It is the same for all.
The bottom line is you can shoot groups however you want but rock solid rests are a key factor in tuning a gun and load development.
Calvin
it still depends on what you want to achieve. I see your point about the rests and matches. How do you know your gun is properly tuned it could just be luck! I personally feel that a lot of the small groups that we hear about are just that LUCK!
If you want to know the full potential of the gun then you require the use of very sturdy front and rear rests. If not, you are just fooling yourself and chasing your tail like a dog in load development. How do you know that the load you have developed is THE LOAD? You won't unless the rests are used.
Like Oscar said in the other thread and if you want to see your groups shrink more then you better pull out the windflagsand learn to read the conditions. I am very new to windflags and reading wind but I see exactly what it can do for you. After you know that the load is the best you can find for the gun then you can shoot however you want. You know then that your gun is tuned to its max potential. Whatever happens to your groups after that time you can blame only yourself for the pulled shots. This taking in that your optics are rock solid.
I aso feel that the magnification of the scope will make a big difference on group sizes. The more the power the better. Set your target up and compare a 3-9 with a 5-15 and move on up to a 6.5 -20. See what I am getting at? You are able to get a better bead at what your are aiming at. I have a 5-15 on my 6BR and am waiting for a 36X Weaver to put on top of it. This is just so I can test the true potential of the gun and my loads. Using a high power magnification scope also introduces another factor mirage. This is something else that I will have to contend with. I feel that if I want to become better I have to be able to overcome this.
This would be a interesting thought. If you want to seperate the men from the boys then it should be a match where only one gun is used for all competitors. They only difference will be the shooter. The gun is tuned to the max. It is the same for all.
The bottom line is you can shoot groups however you want but rock solid rests are a key factor in tuning a gun and load development.
Calvin
TheCanuck said:
You will have to decide what discipline you want to shoot. If you want to shoot Target Rifle were you are holding the rifle all by yourself, then forget about the rests altogether. Oh, you can get rid of the scope too.
Iron sights only for Target Rifle.Use whatever means allowed by the rules, you are only handicapping yourself if you don't.
maynard said:You will have to decide what discipline you want to shoot. If you want to shoot Target Rifle were you are holding the rifle all by yourself, then forget about the rests altogether. Oh, you can get rid of the scope too.
Use whatever means allowed by the rules, you are only handicapping yourself if you don't.
I don't intend to shoot competition. I shoot for fun and hunting. And like i mentionned, i can see the usefullness of a rest/vise system for load development and rifle tuning. But what does it say about a shooter?
And all this is just for the sakes of discussion, not a rant or a bash
By shooting with a front and rear rest, you are taking SOME of the operator error out of the equation when load testing or tuning.
When I test loads, I shoot with a jacket and sling, but remember I have been doing this type of shooting for years. I am sure I can hold better them .5 MOA. When I test off a rest I am all over the map.
That just shows my bench technique sucks.
When I test loads, I shoot with a jacket and sling, but remember I have been doing this type of shooting for years. I am sure I can hold better them .5 MOA. When I test off a rest I am all over the map.
That just shows my bench technique sucks.
TheCanuck said:
What does it say about a shooter? It says that the shooter is doing just exactly as previously mentioned trying to remove 1 equation from the final outcome. There is enough with the wind and the mirage to contend with let alone trying to hold the gun steady. Yes there are disciplines where it is that way. That is why people choose the discipline they want to shoot.
Personally, I do not feel that a Tactical rifle is a precision rifle. Many on this board would feel otherwise. The only precision rifle in my eyes is a true BR rifle built on aftermarket components.
It is wonderful that we live in a free country and can protest freely without penalty!!!!!!!!!
Calvin
Terry Perkins
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bruce County
I understand that your position is that real rifle shooting occurs without any support.
I agree that there are situations where support is not warranted, and practicing this type of shooting is the only way to go. For example, most of my deer hunting is done in close quarters (10 to 75 yards), so I practise offhand shooting at 50 and 100 yards. I will not achieve 0.3 MOA during this type of shooting.
I also hunt at extended ranges. To think that I would attempt these shots offhand is stupid. If hunting at long ranges you generally have time to set up for a supported shot. If I wish to place my bullet within 0.3 MOA of my point of aim (which is necessary during long range hunting), a lot of factors come into play. Two of which are support and practice. Competition is very good practice.
Do not diminish the accomplishments of long range shooters. Many of them compete and practice to be much more effective in the field.There is more to LR shooting than reading the wind.
As an aside...the 2430 meter kill shot by a Canadian soldier took an awful lot of supported shooting practice. That was one helluva shot from a shooter!
Terry Perkins
I agree that there are situations where support is not warranted, and practicing this type of shooting is the only way to go. For example, most of my deer hunting is done in close quarters (10 to 75 yards), so I practise offhand shooting at 50 and 100 yards. I will not achieve 0.3 MOA during this type of shooting.
I also hunt at extended ranges. To think that I would attempt these shots offhand is stupid. If hunting at long ranges you generally have time to set up for a supported shot. If I wish to place my bullet within 0.3 MOA of my point of aim (which is necessary during long range hunting), a lot of factors come into play. Two of which are support and practice. Competition is very good practice.
Do not diminish the accomplishments of long range shooters. Many of them compete and practice to be much more effective in the field.There is more to LR shooting than reading the wind.
As an aside...the 2430 meter kill shot by a Canadian soldier took an awful lot of supported shooting practice. That was one helluva shot from a shooter!
Terry Perkins
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
in anwsering the original question, the rear bag makes a difference in the way it is constructed, and how each shooter likes to fill it for density.
I prefer a very stiff Lone Eagle for some of my rifles and a Protector for others.
One has small ears and the other a deeper seat, depending on the stock.
The rear bag comes moree into play once a shooter has reach a point where he can utlilize the difference however, and I don't think it makes a big difference
till the shotter knows that one is more comfortable thhan the other.
I use a rear bag when zeroing rifles and checking for accurcay, but then rezero whe I use my slings, because the POI will be different because of the systrm used.
Cat
I prefer a very stiff Lone Eagle for some of my rifles and a Protector for others.
One has small ears and the other a deeper seat, depending on the stock.
The rear bag comes moree into play once a shooter has reach a point where he can utlilize the difference however, and I don't think it makes a big difference
till the shotter knows that one is more comfortable thhan the other.
I use a rear bag when zeroing rifles and checking for accurcay, but then rezero whe I use my slings, because the POI will be different because of the systrm used.
Cat
I prefer to shoot with only a bipod and no rear support. Rear supports are for zeroing your scope and testing loads only in my opinion. If anything is to be used as a rear support when shooting it should be your other hand or arm or something, but then again, I don't shoot at 1000yrds.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
We must realize that there are other types of shooting other than our own personal preferences!
Short range benchrest, long range bench rest, and (yes!) even "F" class allow for and in the case of BR, are necessary for top scores.
The gentleman had asked for the pertence of the use of , not for our opinions of the rear bag use! .
Cat
Short range benchrest, long range bench rest, and (yes!) even "F" class allow for and in the case of BR, are necessary for top scores.
The gentleman had asked for the pertence of the use of , not for our opinions of the rear bag use!
.Cat
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Tony Gauthier
CGN Regular
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
The front and rear rests will get the most accuracy out of your rifle. I practise with a bipod on my hunting rifles once I have worked out a load off of bags. I have enough trouble with the wind let alone trying to work up a load for gun offhand! When I shoot my benchrest guns I practise off of rests. I wouldn't even be able to come close to the kind of accuracy required to place in a B.R. match any other way!!! When shooting gophers or plinking with a .22 I often (seldom succesfully) try it off hand. Plinking and gophers (being a prairie boy) I don't feel require that much accuracy, but think it is good practise. As a very succesfull silhouette shooter told me " Stand on your hind legs and shoot like a man." That takes a lot of practise!!!!
The idea of benchrest is to determine the most accurate component combination of gun parts and reloading components. After that it is all about the wind.
The idea of benchrest is to determine the most accurate component combination of gun parts and reloading components. After that it is all about the wind.
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TightGroup
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Saint-Louis-de-Kent, NB
I think the shot is only the tip of the ice berg. A great group is the test that you have done everything correctly.
There is much more to than just the shot, its the tinkering, the countless hours of testing and tweaking, the handloads, the calculations, all of this is part of the game. The shot is the statement !
As for big bank accounst winning the pot, I am not totally sure about that one.
Your rig is also made up of sweat , tears and hardship, something that adds to the relationship, not just money.
There is much more to than just the shot, its the tinkering, the countless hours of testing and tweaking, the handloads, the calculations, all of this is part of the game. The shot is the statement !
As for big bank accounst winning the pot, I am not totally sure about that one.
Your rig is also made up of sweat , tears and hardship, something that adds to the relationship, not just money.
Are they really relevant? Why would they not be? If you are just pulling the trigger then you are not really shooting the rifle? What in the heck are you doing!?
If the shooting which is done while using a rear rest is of no relevance, then all rifles would perform just the same using this method regardless of who pulled the trigger. I promise you, this is not the case!
Now, to a certain extent, how a rifle performs from a rest may not be all that relevant to performance in the field. In many cases the hold may greatly influence the point of impact and the consistency of the rifle. This means that a rifle sighted in and tested from the bench may not hit in the same place when fired with a sling or without one. In either case, it pays for the shooter to know what the effect of varying his hold might be.
Canuck, You say you can see the point of a rest system for load developement and rifle tuning then ask "what does it say about the shooter?"
Well, it says the shooter is interested enough in the performance of his rifle to want to know what it can do. It also says the shooter is able to enjoy this without any predjudice about how he does it!
Then there is the statement to the effect that competitions allowing such rests are ridiculous and more indicative of the shooter's wealth than his ability. This is, to put it bluntly, a load of crap!
I have often shot in competitions which allowed the use of a rear rest and have won handily shooting against guys whose scopes cost more than my entire outfit. On the other hand I have shot with guys who were, by my standards, very well off and who shot very well. The point is, these individuals shot very well because they were very skilled riflemen (or women). The fact that they used an expensive rifle in no way diminished the skill they displayed.
One of the toughest competitors at 300 meter "F" class is Tom Fripp of Kamloops. Tom shoots a pretty common looking 40XBR rifle which is old enough that one can be sure he didn't have to put a lot of money into it. He's just a damn fine shooter. Tom is also an ardent hunter and a damn fine game shot so, relevant or not, his shooting with a rear rest certainly doesn't hurt him.
Jay Winfield shoots some very nice rifles which would cost quite a bit. He shoots so well, not because he has some expensive rifles but because he shoots them often enough to be able to make them perform. Again, he shoots well from any position and his proven abilities from a rest do not diminish his obvious skills as a rifleman.
The same thing can be said of most of the "F" class and benchrest shooters with whom I've competed over the years. Many, many guys are as confident and capable as they are because of the extensive testing they have done using rests, front and rear. Irrelevant? Hardly. Regards, Bill.
If the shooting which is done while using a rear rest is of no relevance, then all rifles would perform just the same using this method regardless of who pulled the trigger. I promise you, this is not the case!
Now, to a certain extent, how a rifle performs from a rest may not be all that relevant to performance in the field. In many cases the hold may greatly influence the point of impact and the consistency of the rifle. This means that a rifle sighted in and tested from the bench may not hit in the same place when fired with a sling or without one. In either case, it pays for the shooter to know what the effect of varying his hold might be.
Canuck, You say you can see the point of a rest system for load developement and rifle tuning then ask "what does it say about the shooter?"
Well, it says the shooter is interested enough in the performance of his rifle to want to know what it can do. It also says the shooter is able to enjoy this without any predjudice about how he does it!
Then there is the statement to the effect that competitions allowing such rests are ridiculous and more indicative of the shooter's wealth than his ability. This is, to put it bluntly, a load of crap!
I have often shot in competitions which allowed the use of a rear rest and have won handily shooting against guys whose scopes cost more than my entire outfit. On the other hand I have shot with guys who were, by my standards, very well off and who shot very well. The point is, these individuals shot very well because they were very skilled riflemen (or women). The fact that they used an expensive rifle in no way diminished the skill they displayed.
One of the toughest competitors at 300 meter "F" class is Tom Fripp of Kamloops. Tom shoots a pretty common looking 40XBR rifle which is old enough that one can be sure he didn't have to put a lot of money into it. He's just a damn fine shooter. Tom is also an ardent hunter and a damn fine game shot so, relevant or not, his shooting with a rear rest certainly doesn't hurt him.
Jay Winfield shoots some very nice rifles which would cost quite a bit. He shoots so well, not because he has some expensive rifles but because he shoots them often enough to be able to make them perform. Again, he shoots well from any position and his proven abilities from a rest do not diminish his obvious skills as a rifleman.
The same thing can be said of most of the "F" class and benchrest shooters with whom I've competed over the years. Many, many guys are as confident and capable as they are because of the extensive testing they have done using rests, front and rear. Irrelevant? Hardly. Regards, Bill.
I've just discovered (the hard way) the purpose of a rear sandbag rest. It adds stability to your rig when you need it the most at a 1000 meter competition. To me shooting (F-class or precession) is more than just pulling the trigger. It's watching the wind flags and waiting for your shot, knowing you've got to send a prescribed amount of rounds downrange in a prescribed time period. It's battling mental and physical fatigue under a summer sun. It's listening to the other shooters chat about how well or how poor their shots were, and tuning everything out. If you're a 'plinker' then this does'nt apply. But if you want to send a preceise shot down range then you understand it's more that just your equipment. All in all, shooting isn't very physical, but it is extremely mental. You should try it and other shooting sports before you start passing judgments. Who knows, you might joing our dwindling group of sport shooters.
