Photo: Banner Platoon Ottawa 1942

[1898guns]

Every time I come accross a military photo like this, I promptly buy it and take it home (if the price is right) The soldiers faces say so much, and it makes you wonder how each and every one of them faired if they did go to war. In this photo I do not recognise the rifles, battalion, what "CNTBC Ottawa" stands for or what "Banner Platoon" means - if anyone can identify these or tell a bigger story I would love to hear it.

On the back was written "Bob Hornblower, Landsdown Park, 1942-43" I would say there was no such "Hornblower" in the group, and suggest "Bob" earned himself the Hornblower nickname (as in Horatio Hornblower, popular character since 1937.....) Although Horatio was a Navy chap...... you never know, maybe there was a real Hornblower in the group.

 

[scott585]

p-14 enfields, a mauser style rifle in .303, i dont recognize the diagonal strap under their webbing they all seem to have

 

[1898guns]

P-14

Indeed P-14, thanks for that. One thing I did notice, I think the two fellows on each side of the officer in the middle (with the swagger stick) are S D & G highlanders from Cornwall (cap badges). Not too sure on the cap badge on the middle fellow, or the rest, though..... Anyone figure out that diagonal strap?

 

[green]

The rifles lack the screw for the long range sight and have the long grasping groove of the US M1917 Rifle which were purchased in large numbers, 100,000+, so IMHO they are US M1917.
The P14 was little used in Canada.

 

[1898guns]

M1917, really. Never would have thought... I'll take a better photo a little later. These are just random photos off the net, but they look so similar..

M1917

P-14

 

[Nabs]

P14s were made on contract by the U.S. for Britain during WW1 up to 1917. When the U.S. mobilized, Remington, Eddystone, and Winchester utilized the P14 design and changed the caliber to 30-06, relabelled "U.S. Model of 1917 .30 caliber rifle".

They are suppose to be very well made, especially the Winchester ones.

 

[1898guns]

So if these are P-14s they are .303 and if they are M1917s they are 30-06. I could not see them using 30-06 when 303 was the norm, but I actually know squat. Noticed one rifle has a "sight shade" for lack of a better term...

 

[1898guns]

I read that 70,000+ M1917s were actually converted to P-14s for WW2, in 1942. That may be what we are looking at here....

 

[Ballsofice154]

Pattern 1917's in use by the Home Guard almost always had a red band painted on the but stock to distinguish between the rifles and the calibers used.(P14 .303 P17 .30-06)
I would assume the rifles pictured are pattern 14's chambered in .303 and not a 17 chambered in .30-06

 

[canuck]

The M1917 (not Pattern 1917 ) rifles Ive seen have had the red band on the fore-wood, like this:

If you look closely in the OP pic, I believe you can make out the band on the rifles.


Great pic BTW, thanks for posting it

 

[1898guns]

Certainly. Case closed on the rifles, thanks Canuck. Now who can suggest what a CNBTC Banner Platoon was? My wife read this thread, she suggested the diagonal straps on the men were banner pole holders, and the whole lot were in charge of banners on parade day.... that made me laugh. Hey.... wait a minute.....

 

[Ballsofice154]

thanks canuck for the correction. my old brain doesn't work as well as it used to

 

[y2k]

My father did Basic in Moose Jaw 1942 with a P14.

 

[tiriaq]

Home Guard & red band were in the UK. Are C/l\ stamped US rifles used for training in Canada marked with the red band?
CABTC: Canadian Army Basic Training Center.
With the forend grooves, the rifles are M1917s.

 

[smellie]

M1917 was referred to in Canadian manuals of the period as the P-'17 when in Canadian Service.

It can be a US Rifle, Caliber .30, M1917 when in American Service but, when in Canadian Service it is a P-'17 and its calibre (note spelling) is .30; it ate the same .30M2 ammo as all those thousands of Browning MGs.

Canadian manuals exist with this terminology.

Honest: I didn't make it up.

Although likely I would have if I could have got away with it........
.

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

p-14 enfields, a mauser style rifle in .303, i dont recognize the diagonal strap under their webbing they all seem to have

The '37 Pattern Webbing has a number of variations and configurations. Without thinking too hard, there is a side bag or haversack. Sort of like a 'murse' or 'courier bag'. There is a single canister respirator that came in a small pouch, as well as the more visible chest mounted style with a hose to a bigger canister. The manuals had a few suggestions on how to wear personal equipment in different places, mostly depending on what else was being worn.

Our friend Badger at milsurps.com has a few photo galleries, and he recommends www.karkeeweb.com as another source. You can't have too many sources.

For the record, I think 'Banner' has nothing to do with carrying anything. That is not a British/Canadian military custom. I think it refers to a prize or honour at that particular training centre, the same way the winner of a friendly competition between mostly equal groups can instill greater pride or better turn out.

 

[tiriaq]

For the record, I think 'Banner' has nothing to do with carrying anything. That is not a British/Canadian military custom. I think it refers to a prize or honour at that particular training centre, the same way the winner of a friendly competition between mostly equal groups can instill greater pride or better turn out.

I would assume that this was the leading platoon in the training Bn.

 

[Garand]

In 1940, the Canadian Government purchased 80,000 US Army Rifles, Model of 1917 otherwise known as the P17. They were issued to Air Force base guards, Defence Plant Guards, Pacific Coast Rangers and Training Establishments. This freed up all available Lee Enfield Rifles available in Canada to be issued to Canadian Soldiers deploying overseas with other Commonwealth Forces who used the Enfield.

Just a thought about the diagonal strap, it could be for the small pack that is normally worn on the back, or could be worn on the right side depending upon unit dress regulations.

 

[purple]

A few yrs ago I found a VHS tape copy of a WW2 training film on the use of the M1917 Enfield. Surprisingly, it was Canadian made and is quite comprehensive.

 

[myenfield]

Home Guard & red band were in the UK. Are C/l\ stamped US rifles used for training in Canada marked with the red band?
CABTC: Canadian Army Basic Training Center.
With the forend grooves, the rifles are M1917s.

My M17/P17 with red band is C/I\ marked. I also have couple of boxes of the red banded 30-06 ammo made by Dominion.