Pick the best of Canada's military rifle heritage.
- Thread starter TGC
- Start date
To that end, the finest battle rifle designed by a person born Canadian, is of course THE GARAND!!!!
Long Branch Lee Enfield helped put us on the radar for the rest of the world to see we were truly a nation and not just another colony of Britain.
And my next pick was the FNC1 as IMHO it is still the best battle rifle out there of it's vintage.
In fact If I was called up I would rather and FNC1 then a C7.
And my next pick was the FNC1 as IMHO it is still the best battle rifle out there of it's vintage.
In fact If I was called up I would rather and FNC1 then a C7.
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This ex-soldier will remain poodle-gun free!
As far as which rifle I prefer, it would be the C1A1, hands down.
As far as which was, and still continues to be, the most significant: LB No4MkI*
And the Ross got too many of our lads killed, IMHO. Nice target rifle, but (like many pieces of kit given to soldiers) it should never have made it to the mud.
As far as which rifle I prefer, it would be the C1A1, hands down.
As far as which was, and still continues to be, the most significant: LB No4MkI*
And the Ross got too many of our lads killed, IMHO. Nice target rifle, but (like many pieces of kit given to soldiers) it should never have made it to the mud.
I first thought of the Ross as it was a fine, accurate rifle that we could really call our own; although not really suited to the muddy conditions of battle with its tight tolerances. Then there were the rumours of people getting hurt from improper re-assembly of the bolt (although Capt Herbert McBride of "A Rifleman Went To War" is pretty adamant that he never could substantiate this claim, and I kind'a defer to him seeing as he was there.)
Having trained on the C1A1, used it for a few years, then went to the C7, there's really no contest in my mind. Yes, I've heard all the claims of poodle-shooter and Mattel-_____ and that a C1 could shoot through 8 tanks lined in a row whereas you had to dip the bbl of a C7 just to make sure the projectile fell out. And it didn't help that all the senior NCOs and Warrants lamented the day that we got rid of their beloved "rifleman's rifle" [disclaimer here: I personally love my M-14 and Garand so I've got nothing against .30 cals], but the one thing that has stood out in my mind when comparing the two came after having staffed CFSAC in 91 and 92, and then shooting it in 93, is that the scores litterally doubled when the field converted on masse to the C7. It wasn't unheard of for decent marksmen to miss a few out of 10 shots at snap and rapid targets with the C1 whereas a few years later you weren't considered at all competitive if you didn't consistently get all 10 in the centre ring (and just to be sure, I'm talking pre-Elcan here).
So, because I used to tell recruits that it was more effective to hit a man at 400m with a poodle-shooter than to miss him at 400m with an elephant killer, I chose the C7!
I agree with a previous post that the Garand should've been on list since he was a Canuck and that quite a few Cnds were swapping their LEs for Garands during the Korean conflict - hard to tell the Cdns from the Yanks in some wartime photos!
Having trained on the C1A1, used it for a few years, then went to the C7, there's really no contest in my mind. Yes, I've heard all the claims of poodle-shooter and Mattel-_____ and that a C1 could shoot through 8 tanks lined in a row whereas you had to dip the bbl of a C7 just to make sure the projectile fell out. And it didn't help that all the senior NCOs and Warrants lamented the day that we got rid of their beloved "rifleman's rifle" [disclaimer here: I personally love my M-14 and Garand so I've got nothing against .30 cals], but the one thing that has stood out in my mind when comparing the two came after having staffed CFSAC in 91 and 92, and then shooting it in 93, is that the scores litterally doubled when the field converted on masse to the C7. It wasn't unheard of for decent marksmen to miss a few out of 10 shots at snap and rapid targets with the C1 whereas a few years later you weren't considered at all competitive if you didn't consistently get all 10 in the centre ring (and just to be sure, I'm talking pre-Elcan here).
So, because I used to tell recruits that it was more effective to hit a man at 400m with a poodle-shooter than to miss him at 400m with an elephant killer, I chose the C7!
I agree with a previous post that the Garand should've been on list since he was a Canuck and that quite a few Cnds were swapping their LEs for Garands during the Korean conflict - hard to tell the Cdns from the Yanks in some wartime photos!
The FNC1A1 was just getting wore out, how many of us old guys, had to set the gas regulator not to 4, but to three and lower to make it work? I remember on a SACC at Borden for the reserves, a fellow came from a northern Ontario unit and brought one of his units rifles with him. This rifle had been to the shop and reworked and redone and turned into a new rifle, even through it was a 8L series rifle I believe. This rifle worked fine on 11, full open gas. So if the money had been spent, all the FN's could have worked as fine, and scores would have increased, as it , or this rifle was such an easy shooter.
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While I would agree that the age, wear and tear on the C1s reduced their accuracy as compared to brand-spankin'-new C7s (at the time), my overall impression is that the reduction in recoil was the single greatest attribute of the 5.56mm. In the manly sport of service rifle shooting, people rarely admit to the recoil factor, but, in my experience, it makes a significant difference.
I found the design of the C1 amplified recoil. In theory, it should have been fairly mild considering its weight, but since a fair number of pounds of steel could be found in the piston, bolt and bolt carrier, it put a pounding on a shooter that was sleeping in tent for a week in hot 'n humid July in Ottawa, out in sun all day competing (CFSAC) for 4 or 5 days in a row; the recoil adds to the fatigue factor. I saw this a lot later on shooting ATA trap whereby a lot of the old timers used release triggers to fight the flinch when shooting a 12 gauge 300-500 times a day. As an aside, I found that my M-14 and Garand didn't kick as much as the C1 did (and yes, the setting of the gas regulator plays a big part in this).
Reflecting on the majority of recruits coming into the CF, most were/are from urban environments where they had never shot a gun. To go from zero to C7 for them is a much easier transition than zero to C1, IMHO. This is why I think the C7 is the CF's greatest, quantitative and comprehensive advance in a service rifle.
I found the design of the C1 amplified recoil. In theory, it should have been fairly mild considering its weight, but since a fair number of pounds of steel could be found in the piston, bolt and bolt carrier, it put a pounding on a shooter that was sleeping in tent for a week in hot 'n humid July in Ottawa, out in sun all day competing (CFSAC) for 4 or 5 days in a row; the recoil adds to the fatigue factor. I saw this a lot later on shooting ATA trap whereby a lot of the old timers used release triggers to fight the flinch when shooting a 12 gauge 300-500 times a day. As an aside, I found that my M-14 and Garand didn't kick as much as the C1 did (and yes, the setting of the gas regulator plays a big part in this).
Reflecting on the majority of recruits coming into the CF, most were/are from urban environments where they had never shot a gun. To go from zero to C7 for them is a much easier transition than zero to C1, IMHO. This is why I think the C7 is the CF's greatest, quantitative and comprehensive advance in a service rifle.
You tend to favour what you were trained on and what you carried. I started off on the FN and always felt that it was a real battle rifle-rugged,dependable and hard hitting. Even the weight was'nt a problem for a young fellow in good shape.
As late as 1968 I remember one of the old sweats, who had never done drill with the FN, being dinged for a quarter guard asking why they could'nt still use the Lee-Enfields which he had carried thru WW2.
I think the comments about the relative recoil of the FN and the C7 are entirely valid. The FN was a real kicker in comparison to the Garand and M14,even with a proper hold. I put a lot of that down to the stock design. I remember some of the smaller folk and the females being totally intimidated by it's recoil on the firing line.
I first handled the C7 26 yrs after doing basic trg on the FN and found it a real pleasure to shoot. So much so that I went out and bought a Colt HBAR. I still think I'd reach for the FN if the chips were down and I had a choice.
As late as 1968 I remember one of the old sweats, who had never done drill with the FN, being dinged for a quarter guard asking why they could'nt still use the Lee-Enfields which he had carried thru WW2.
I think the comments about the relative recoil of the FN and the C7 are entirely valid. The FN was a real kicker in comparison to the Garand and M14,even with a proper hold. I put a lot of that down to the stock design. I remember some of the smaller folk and the females being totally intimidated by it's recoil on the firing line.
I first handled the C7 26 yrs after doing basic trg on the FN and found it a real pleasure to shoot. So much so that I went out and bought a Colt HBAR. I still think I'd reach for the FN if the chips were down and I had a choice.
There are some MAJOR problems with the poll as set up -
1. Canada never adopted either the Martini-Henry or the Lee-Metford as a primary issue military rifle, so neither really deserves inclusion in the list. (For that matter, the Brunswick rifle is pretty questionable ....)
2. Rather, Canada went straight from the Snider-Enfield to the Magazine Lee-Enfield ("Long Lee-Enfield"), which is missing from the list ....
3. Also glaringly absent: the Short Magazine Lee-Enfield (SMLE, aka Rifle No. 1 MkIII) which arguably was the world's best ever bolt-action battle rifle. More Canadians carried it in combat than any other military rifle in our history (after withdrawal of the Ross from front line troops during the Great War[/I] ....) Had it been included in the list, it would have been the obvious choice for me!
Canada used the Snider longer than any other part of the British Empire (at least forty years in primary- and secondary-issue roles) even though it was really intended only as a stop-gap measure, so I was tempted to vote for it .... but opted for the Longbranch No. 4 Lee-Enfield, finally.
1. Canada never adopted either the Martini-Henry or the Lee-Metford as a primary issue military rifle, so neither really deserves inclusion in the list. (For that matter, the Brunswick rifle is pretty questionable ....)
2. Rather, Canada went straight from the Snider-Enfield to the Magazine Lee-Enfield ("Long Lee-Enfield"), which is missing from the list ....
3. Also glaringly absent: the Short Magazine Lee-Enfield (SMLE, aka Rifle No. 1 MkIII) which arguably was the world's best ever bolt-action battle rifle. More Canadians carried it in combat than any other military rifle in our history (after withdrawal of the Ross from front line troops during the Great War[/I] ....) Had it been included in the list, it would have been the obvious choice for me!
Canada used the Snider longer than any other part of the British Empire (at least forty years in primary- and secondary-issue roles) even though it was really intended only as a stop-gap measure, so I was tempted to vote for it .... but opted for the Longbranch No. 4 Lee-Enfield, finally.
I believe the Canadian Airborne Regiment would have used the FN C1 in anger in Cyprus, when the Turks invaded the island in 1974..there was some pretty hot firefights with our guys against the Turks who wanted to capture the airfield at Nicosea.
Okay, when I went through GMT and BTT infantry, I was 17 years old, 6 feet tall, and about 150 lbs soaking wet. I NEVER felt abused by the FN. The first time I fired a .303, it nearly knocked my teeth out. I guess recoil must be subjective to how well a particular stock fits the shooter. That said, yes, the FNs were very tired by the late 80s, and I'm sure that the C7s were probably more accurate. Heck, I know I hardly ever got to put any live rounds through one!
M14? Really? Crikey, my understanding is that the only reason the yanks went with them is because somebody had votes in a factory that made them - I believe the testers preferred the T48, but couldn't get past the government's xenophobia of European made product.
M14? Really? Crikey, my understanding is that the only reason the yanks went with them is because somebody had votes in a factory that made them - I believe the testers preferred the T48, but couldn't get past the government's xenophobia of European made product.
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well we should have adopted the T48, but it was "studlered" ie; Col Studler in charge of the testing rigged it so the M14 won. supposedly the M14 could be made on the same machinery as the M1 Garand. They were WRONG!
Now as for the Ross,
1. design changes during the production run with NO change in nomenclature.
2. As mentioned, jammed in the mud of the trenches so opening the bolt was done with an ammo boot rather than the fingers.
3. Could not digest the SAME ammunition being used in the Lee-Enfield
4. Canadian troops voted the only way they knew how, appropriating Lee-Enfields whenever they could get their hands on them until the government finaly gave in.
The real winner was Ross who sold the factory and retired to Florida!
And I do have two of those rifles. Very accurate but don't get them dirty.
As someone else mentioned, my favourite Canadian firearm is my Mk1m BREN, followed by my RCMP No4.
Now as for the Ross,
1. design changes during the production run with NO change in nomenclature.
2. As mentioned, jammed in the mud of the trenches so opening the bolt was done with an ammo boot rather than the fingers.
3. Could not digest the SAME ammunition being used in the Lee-Enfield
4. Canadian troops voted the only way they knew how, appropriating Lee-Enfields whenever they could get their hands on them until the government finaly gave in.
The real winner was Ross who sold the factory and retired to Florida!
And I do have two of those rifles. Very accurate but don't get them dirty.
As someone else mentioned, my favourite Canadian firearm is my Mk1m BREN, followed by my RCMP No4.
