Picked up another Gewehr 1888 Commission Rifle.

By chance, does the 88/14 bear any Turkish markings (i.e. bolt, rear sight, stock..etc ?). I can imagine a few 88/14s may have found their way to the Turks alongside 88.05s but this has so far been undocumented with no supporting examples.

The short answer is, I don't know yet.......

I have posted it on the boards you suggested and am hoping someone over there can provide some info/guidance. Still trying to read up and learn.

I have a Turk 88/05/35 that is literally covered in crescents. When they "turked" an 88/05 (or in this case an 88/14) as opposed to conversion, would they apply the same markings or just refurb/refinish and piece together ?
 
If you look at my rifle above, yo will see the places turkish issue is likely to be apparent:

1) A crescent on the receiver somewhere (this was not always dowe)
2) A bolt serialized in turkish script (This was not always done either, some Turk-issue 88's have the original bolts still)
3) Turkish markings on the rear sight - this was almost always done and is your best indicator.
 
From what I have seen and noticed on 88s I have, 88s refurbished in the 1920s had parts swapped (stocks, bands, magazines, bolts...etc) to make a functional and reliable firearm. I doubt the Turks would have cared if the rifle in question was an 88.05 or an 88.14 only that it worked and was reliable in the field. German parts that were swapped were not re-matched. The rear sights had the German graduations ground off and the re-applied in Fashi text.

Rifles refurbished during WW1 and the 1920s are typically in their original trim (receiver in the white, markings intact...etc) and are essentially in their "German trim" as they were given to the Turks.

For rifles refurbished during the 1930s, typically a re-blue of external parts was done. This included the butt plate, stock fixtures (recoil lug and rear sling swivel base, and lower barrel band spring), the receiver, the barrel jacket, and both bands. In addition, with the acceptance of arabic numeral system in Turkey in 1928, rear sights that were in Fashi text were ground off and arabic numerals applied. Typically, these rifles are mis-matched as they were rebuilt with available parts. Barrels may be the original one to the rifle or replaced .323" examples made by the Turks but retained in the Gewehr 88 trim.

For rifles that were completely rebuilt to closely resemble the 1903 pattern, a number of parts were retained and re-used to keep the cost down. Barrels would be replaced with newly made examples but it seems that 1903 style barrels were salvaged from older 1903 Mauser rifles and put on after evaluating two 88.05.38s I have. The stock can be a re-used 1903 Mauser stock that is hand inletted for the Gewehr 88 action and magazine or a newly made black circassian walnut piece. The give away between these two, besides the grain of wood, is the lower band spring of the 1903 stock versus the screw type of the Turkish made examples.

The 88 receiver is re-used with a hand guard adapter made to screw onto the barrel jacket threading. The barrel jacket post is cut off the barrel jacket and brazed onto the bottom of the hand guard adapter. A hole is drilled and tapped in the post to allow for the use of the 1890, 1893, or 1903 style cleaning rod. The upper band is a re-used 1890-1893, 1903 type whereas the lower one could be a re-used Gewehr 88 lower band or a 1893-1903 style band.

Bolt pieces are typically re-numbered with Arabic numerals to match the conversion.

Receivers were scrubbed of German markings on the exterior and the Turks applied their own property marking with the date and place of conversion.

As Claven has mentioned, some 88s may have German made bolt components though this is quite uncommon. One of my 88s has a complete German made bolt in her (an 88.05.38) though it is completely mis-matched. Two others have German made bolt bodies with their fire proof, acceptance, and serial numbers intact. Most that I have have czech made replacement bolts that are, I must add, very well made.

As for the crescent moon on the receiver, I do not know why some rifles received this and others did not.

The Turks used these rifles as front, and later, reserve arms up until the 1970s so I generally expect Turkish 88s to be mis-matched to some degree given German and Turkish part swapping.

I could post pictures of the three main types that I have identified to aid in the descriptions.
 
Nabs you have my word that if I ever sell it, it will be going to you.

Thank Mikerock, I dream of the day I can hold that Steyr :D.

She would be the last of the arsenals that I would require to have one from every arsenal that made them. In addition, I would be very much interested in examining the original 88 action and magazine and comparing the conversion and workmanship to that of 88.05s and, hopefully in the future, an 88.14.

No rush or anything...;).
 
Most that I have have czech made replacement bolts that are, I must add, very well made.

Great info, thanks. What markings identify a Czech bolt, "CZ" logo somewhere I assume? What proof marks do the czech bolts have - Czech or Turk ?

Are there any other countries that used these rifles ? Are there more options than just original German and then Turk use ?
 
What markings identify a Czech bolt?

Since these bolts were made on contract and for export to Turkey, no Czech military markings have been applied. The Czech export marking is the "Z in a circle". On the under side of the bolt is, I believe, the inspector's initial (letters will vary between bolt bodies). I do not know exactly what this marking is but it is my best guess.

...What proof marks do the czech bolts have - Czech or Turk ?

The Czech bolts only the the "Z in a circle" and the inspector initial on the underside of the bolt handle.

The Turkish applied their own bolt number (they seem to run into the 99### range of numbers when you translate the Fashi text) so it seems likely that the Turks did not "match" a bolt to a particular rifle but just marked them as that particular bolt in the contract series.

...Are there any other countries that used these rifles ?

Too many! I can't list them all but there are some notable examples.

You see a lot of photos from China during the 1900s to 1940s with Gewehr 88 rifles built on contract or bought from Europe as well as built locally in China.

South America also ordered a large number of Gewehr 88s (Brazil and Argentina come to my mind) and these are Gewehr 88s in their original pattern (en-bloc clip and patrone 88 style ammo). Steyr made use of their Gewehr 88 license and built and sold a large number of Gewehr 88s to other nations.It seems these 88s are not marked the same as German contract examples and they have the Steyr commercial address on the receiver wall in addition to Steyr proof marks.

...Are there more options than just original German and then Turk use ?

If you are referring to model variations, the ones that I know of are the following, but are not limited to:

  • Gewehr 88 (Germany)
  • Gewehr 88.05 (Germany)
  • Gewehr 88.14 (Germany)
  • Kar 88/ Gew 91 carbines (Germany)
  • Gewehr 88.05 First, Second, Third variation (Turkey)
  • Gewehr 88 contract rifles (Steyr made with Steyr commerical proof marks)
  • Chang-kai-shek rifles with 88 style actions(forgive spelling) (China)

You also have some countries that developed rifles based on the Gewehr 88 action and bolt but that is a whole book in itself. Scarlatta goes into some detail in his book.

I hope this answers your questions.
 
You forgot the common (in 1914) Gew88S (today they are rare-ish). It's basically a regular Gew88 en-bloc loaded rifle with a cover over the lower port that had a spring riveted to it to eject the clip up out of the action instead of down through the ejection port.

I think these were an expedient conversion meant to be made quicker than 88/05 or 88/14 rifles.
 
True I did forget that variation...oops :D.

There was a gentleman on youtube who has a video shooting one of these and you can see the en-bloc clip eject up and out of the action after the bolt has been retracted on firing the last round. It reminds me of an M1 Garand.
 
Always and Excellent read Nabs. Tahnks for the picture Claven2, makes me want to get an 88, missed my chance with Dutchie's piece a few years back.
 
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