*pics added*Smith and Wesson Second Model American, caliber and value??

[sapsk]

I'm currently babysitting some firearms for a young fella who is off at University. One is an old Smith and Wesson Model 3 that was allegedly purchased in Mexico by a relative of his many many years ago. He would sell it to me and I would like to buy it but I want to ensure I give him a fair price, I'm sure I could offer him enough to cover an SKS and he'd take it, but that ain't right as I think its worth a bit more than that.

I used to be able to put pictures on here, no idea how now, I forget computer stuff easily.......

From what I can see it started life as a Second Model American, nickle finish and 8" barrel.

It can best be described now as rode hard and put away wet! Currently it has about 50% finish, cleaned up rust on the barrel is just shy of pitting. The top latch spring is broken and most screw heads are damaged. After some TLC I got the cylinder to turn again and it now works although the cylinder doesn't always remain locked, depending which chamber is lined up.

It appears the barrel has been cut to 5 3/4". Where it should say "Smith and Wesson Springfield Mass U.S.A.........." along the top of the barrel it now reads "(Front sight) ngfield Mass U.S.A........" Its almost a straight cut and was done so long ago that the wear and denting around the muzzle makes it fit right in. The bore is nasty but has visible rifling.

I have no idea what caliber it is, here are my observations......

.44-40 .38-40 ect are too long, they stick out the end of the cylinder.

.44 Russian and .44 S&W flop around in the chambers. A .45 LC will enter the chambers to about 1/4 inch. The chambers are stained and tarnished but not corroded.

With calipers the bore measures roughly .42

Best I can tell with calipers the chambers start at about .47" and taper to .455 at the barrel, for what that's worth........

I'm just looking for some opinions on its value and caliber. Maybe its a .44 Russian or S&W and oversized chambers are normal?

 

[snurge]

If 44 Russian is sloppy it's not an American, probably 45 scofield or 450 boxer

 

[sapsk]

I figured if was a .45 Scofield that 45 Auto, Long Colt or .45 Auto rim would at least fit. They only go in about a 1/4 inch.......I dunno?

 

[tumbleweeds13]

The S&W American only came in one caliber. .44 American. It was a heel based bullet like a .22 rimfire but it was a centerfire round if i remember correctly. Its difficult to get reloading components but this doesnt sound like a shooter. Parts availability is non existent. They were only made for a couple of years (supplanted by the first model Russian in .44 Russian). You can buy a good shootable #3 top break for about $2000-$4000 depending on condition. The high end being minty of course and the low end a usable grey gun with mild pitting and some rifling. Id want to see it before guessing at a price but its probably notvworth more than $600-800. It's become a display piece from the sounds of it. My 2 cents.

 

[Lee Enfield]

Could it be a .44 Henry? Especially if it came out of Mexico...

Possible also to be a .44 Colt...

A Second Model American is the same frame as an "Old Old model Russian" (also known as a First Model Russian).

 

[bobdbldr]

Could be a Mexican clone!?

 

[mr.e moose]

Could it be a Orbea Hermanos in .455 Webley?

 

[polaris]

I figured if was a .45 Scofield that 45 Auto, Long Colt or .45 Auto rim would at least fit. They only go in about a 1/4 inch.......I dunno?

The S&W American only came in one caliber. .44 American. It was a heel based bullet like a .22 rimfire but it was a centerfire round if i remember correctly. Its difficult to get reloading components but this doesnt sound like a shooter. Parts availability is non existent. They were only made for a couple of years (supplanted by the first model Russian in .44 Russian). You can buy a good shootable #3 top break for about $2000-$4000 depending on condition. The high end being minty of course and the low end a usable grey gun with mild pitting and some rifling. Id want to see it before guessing at a price but its probably notvworth more than $600-800. It's become a display piece from the sounds of it. My 2 cents.

Could it be a .44 Henry? Especially if it came out of Mexico...

Possible also to be a .44 Colt...

A Second Model American is the same frame as an "Old Old model Russian" (also known as a First Model Russian).

Could be a Mexican clone!?

Could it be a Orbea Hermanos in .455 Webley?

All great guesses... did we see any pictures yet?

 

[sapsk]

I have great pictures, damned if I can figure out how to get them on here. I used to do it through photobucket but can't sign in anymore. Maybe I'll make a new profile / membership there because this needs pics!

 

[polaris]

send them to me, and I will post them for you.
PM sent

 

[polaris]

here are the pictures:

 

[snurge]

Old nickel plated guns look really bad when the nickel starts coming off.but your gun doesn't look irredeemably shot except for the cut bbl.can you get pix of the bore and chambers.It's not 44 colt as my 44 colt uses a healed bullet in a cut down 44 spl.case
I doubt 44 rf. But easy to check the firing pin.im still going with some sort of 45 with grubby chambers.

 

[sapsk]

Thanks a million to Polaris for posting the pictures.
After going through several books I have and using the interweb I made an educated guess that it's a Second Model American. I based that on the notch in the hammer that engages the latch, and lack of oil hole for the ejector and the serial number of 8400 ish. I read that it could be a first to second model transition........or something like that. These revolvers are a bugger to research.

As for the cartridge it fires, it has to be one of the short .44 rounds. As I mentioned .44 cal cartridges seem awful loose but no .45 rounds will chamber, and the bore is roughly .42".
I have a photo showing how loose the .44 rounds are and will try and get it on here. I've accessed photobucket again but have had no luck getting pictures on it and then a huge add will cover most of the screen with no little "x" that I can find........screw it!

 

[tokguy]

It seems crazy, but... 445 Webley is making the short list.
I've an Frontier Bulldog in a similar caliber, a 44-40 will rattle in the cylinder when the pistol is shaken. A 44-40 bullet would work fine in the bore ( the smaller 445's had a tapered bore...alarmingly so ), but the jump from casing to bore is unsupported. Which generally means a heeled round...IMO.
I used cutdown 444 Marlin brass, which fit like Jake...but this sort of removes the possibility of reloading with a heeled bullet. Brass is way too thick for a decent crimp.
The fellow I acquired it from used 44 magnum brass ( longer cylinder on mine ) and cast bullets for the same...but the fired rounds looked like Coke bottles. I owned a 44 Mag at the time and the possibility of catastrophic explosion ( from a stray Real 44 mag round ) led me to the 444 Marlin casing route.
And good luck. Seems like a fine old six shooter.

 

[snurge]

It seems crazy, but... 445 Webley is making the short list.
I've an Frontier Bulldog in a similar caliber, a 44-40 will rattle in the cylinder when the pistol is shaken. A 44-40 bullet would work fine in the bore ( the smaller 445's had a tapered bore...alarmingly so ), but the jump from casing to bore is unsupported. Which generally means a heeled round...IMO.
I used cutdown 444 Marlin brass, which fit like Jake...but this sort of removes the possibility of reloading with a heeled bullet. Brass is way too thick for a decent crimp.
The fellow I acquired it from used 44 magnum brass ( longer cylinder on mine ) and cast bullets for the same...but the fired rounds looked like Coke bottles. I owned a 44 Mag at the time and the possibility of catastrophic explosion ( from a stray Real 44 mag round ) led me to the 444 Marlin casing route.
And good luck. Seems like a fine old six shooter.

Do you mean 442 or 455?
I can't see anyone chambering it for 442 Webley,it's ok in a bulldog but...and 455 is nearly the same diameter as 45lc and didn't appear til 1891
More pix

 

[tokguy]

Do you mean 442 or 455?
I can't see anyone chambering it for 442 Webley,it's ok in a bulldog but...and 455 is nearly the same diameter as 45lc and didn't appear til 1891
More pix

Most definitely 442. Typo on my part.
I've a couple 455's as well as the 'mystery antiques'... mystery because they never labeled shyt on lots of the old stuff

 

[polaris]

here are some more pictures:

 

[dingus]

some info below.

Used in the Smith & Wesson Model 3, it was introduced around 1869.[1] Between 1871 and 1873, the .44 Model 3 was used as the standard United States Army sidearm.[1] It was also offered in the Merwin Hulbert & Co. Army revolvers.[1]

It used an outside lubricated heeled bullet and appeared in either Boxer and Berdan priming,[1] and both black and smokeless powder loadings.[1] The case used outside-lubricated, heel-type bullets, and therefore is incompatible with later .44 Russian, .44 Special, or .44 Magnum brass, which was made larger in diameter and longer to cover the exposed part of the bullet.

Its power resembles the .41 Long Colt,[1] .32-20 Winchester,[2] or .44-40 Winchester,[3] and it could be used to hunt small game at short range.[2]

The .44 American ceased to be commercially available around 1940. It can be handloaded by shortening and reforming .41 Magnum cases.[1] Original black-powder revolvers should only use black-powder loads; modern powders will generate excessive pressures.[1]

During the Gunfight at the O.K. Corral on October 26, 1881, Wyatt Earp carried an 8-inch .44-caliber 1869 American model Smith & Wesson. Earp had received the weapon as a gift from Tombstone, Arizona mayor and Tombstone Epitaph newspaper editor John Clum.[4]

 

[mooncoon]

For cartridge dimensions use paraffin wax poured into one of the chambers. Put a piece of cotton string in the center, tied to a small piece of cloth used as a plug to prevent wax leaking out. The string is to keep the pieces together if the wax cracks while you are removing it. The wax casting will give you accurate dimensions that you can compare with modern cartridges such as the 41 mag etc. What is important is the base diameter because with the right dies you can reform a larger shell to the dimensions that you want. If the rim is too thick, it needs to be thinned from the front; if you shave the back of the rim, that also affects the depth of the primer pocket

cheers mooncoon

 

[snurge]

I've got a 44 American,44 spl brass is too big around,won't fit
Try rounds from the front of the cylinder if 44 spl fits somebody has mess with it