Pics of the inside of your ATRS AT,MV,MH lower reciever?

jiffx2781 said:
I thought we were talking about receiver fitment being the only factor in consideration for a firearm being a varitent? That's the fact you've been arguing isn't it? Now you're saying the determining factor is trigger groups? You really need to get your facts straight. We weren't arguing about trigger groups. I agree that trigger groups is a non issue if no receiver alterations are made. Did you simply miss that or choose to ignore it? I've only ever stressed the point that this firearm was only DESIGNED from the factory to work with the Timney trigger groups and that unqualified people should not try to change things in regards to the trigger. Have you had yours out? I have and I can tell you there is a reason they recommend people not to touch it. To someone unqualified to reposition it properly it poses a huge safety concern. There's more at play here as to why they say not to change to different trigger groups than your simple reliance on facts or arguments about classifications. Or do you choose to simply say to rely on the facts when you have no other way to justify your point? That's what I thought. As far as it being as simple as receiver fitment alone being the determining factor, in reality you know I'm right. Rick also knows that on paper you are probably correct but in reality you are not. He chose to accept that what is on paper isn't always to be taken at face value and instead choose to capitalize on his realism. His realism has became fruitful. Your simple reliance on facts has not and will not. Or maybe that's why you switched the focus off of receiver fitment and derailed our debate with trigger groups. That's right, I thought I smelled defeat.
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Wow...

I am still saying receivers are the classification key. Others think triggers play a factor. Trigger group is actually part of the original post starting this thread.

You can support one thing, while refuting another.

Perhaps if you slowed down and tried to understand what you are reading it would be less confusing.

Good luck to you. Its been fun.
 
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Fenceline, don't think I don't understand classification. I'm not here to argue with you about it anymore but rather to show you that I understand how classification works. Do you notice anything different about my XCR? Look closely now.

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Does the Timney trigger mean that it is no longer the same rifle? Of course I agree it doesn't change a thing. Nothing was modified on the lower receiver. Only extensive modifications to the trigger group, hammer and safety selector switch were performed. I didn't expect to have the guy who built this rifle do it for me either. Since I'm confident in my skill set I took it upon myself to have what I wanted. No harm done. And to everyone who ever said there is no way to upgrade triggers on the XCR, never say never. And no I am not going to post pictures of how I did it. Actually I'll not post another picture of it again. I'll just enjoy it.
I've made my opinion known throughout this thread that I have no opposition to modifying parts to fit and function on a rifle. My only issue was to make people who don't know any better aware of the things they shouldn't screw with like lower receivers and barrel length. If you do your due diligence and review my postings you will start to figure out my point of view.
As for the trigger group on the MH/MV rifles, if 120 wants to make one fit I and understands and takes sole responsibility for the risks I say good for him. But I'm still highly recommending people don't try and remove the factory trigger pack and replace it with another Timney model themselves. The mounting and positioning of the trigger pack is much more complex than I believe most people will realize and have the ability to disassemble and reinstall correctly and safely. Improper installation and alignment for proper safety engagement on these rifles pose a huge safety risk that isn't an issue with your common two pin trigger assemblies. For the average DIY'er kind a guy I highly discourage effing with anything to do with the trigger assemblies on the ATRS rifles. Not for classification reason but for safety reasons. Sometimes you can't just look at what the facts are because there is a much bigger picture going on. Anyways you have your opinions and I have mine. Everything is open to interpretation because everyone views it from a different perspective.
If ATRS doesn't want to take risks and they choose to incorporate design features that you see as silly and meaningless, that doesn't make their interpretation of the facts any more wrong than you think you are right.
Since you claim to be an expert on what the FRT report says then you should be aware that it clearly states that the "design is derived from an amalgamation of several different firearms designs and does not trace it's design lineage directly to or uniquely to a "prohibited" or a "restricted" firearm found in the regulations....". If you honestly believe it would not have been classified as a varient without all the silly little changes that constitute a new design that has no lineage tracing it's self to the ar-15 then I'll leave you alone to be happy.
Like I said, you're simplistic and unrealistic views have no merit. I think we can agree to disagree. Thanks for the pleasure of the debate. I think this thread has run it's course.
 
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Dude, triggers don't change the classification of a rifle. Not the MV, not the MH. Not your XCR.

Go look up the meaning of "rhetorical".

That has been my point all along in addressing people not wanting to change their MH or MV triggers because "the frt lists it so it means it factors into classification" mentality.

The receiver design is the change that makes it a new gun, with the other pieces bolted to it being attributable to other designs.

Regulated part, vs not regulated parts. Regulated parts are subject to classification.

By your logic your wouldn't be able to submit a stripped firearm receiver to the lab on its own for classification.
 
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My argument is not with parts that are adapted to bolt on. I think I've made it very clear that it is a non issue as I keep posting that I have done it myself. I only keep raising the issue of not messing with the MH/MV trigger system due to ligitimate safety concerns. Or did you overlook that part. You have no need to convince me that the only regulated part is the receiver. I have also made my knowledge of this very clear. My only issue with you is your apparent disbelief that the term "varient" can not or will not be stretched. I'm sure you're aware it's happened before.
It seems you have a hard time reading into and comprehending my posts. Hooked on Phonics might be a good place for you to start. Or is your issue with me simply that it irks you to finally find someone who doesn't agree with everything you say? And no, I don't expect you to answer this. I know what is and what is not legally acceptable with my rifles and I will continue to do as I please within the limits of legality. You have no further need to try and convince me of anything as you have offered me little if anything of value. But thanks for trying to help.
 
jiffx2781 said:
My argument is not with parts that are adapted to bolt on. I think I've made it very clear that it is a non issue as I keep posting that I have done it myself. I only keep raising the issue of not messing with the MH/MV trigger system due to ligitimate safety concerns. Or did you overlook that part. You have no need to convince me that the only regulated part is the receiver. I have also made my knowledge of this very clear. My only issue with you is your apparent disbelief that the term "varient" can not or will not be stretched. I'm sure you're aware it's happened before.
It seems you have a hard time reading into and comprehending my posts. Hooked on Phonics might be a good place for you to start. Or is your issue with me simply that it irks you to finally find someone who doesn't agree with everything you say? And no, I don't expect you to answer this. I know what is and what is not legally acceptable with my rifles and I will continue to do as I please within the limits of legality. You have no further need to try and convince me of anything as you have offered me little if anything of value. But thanks for trying to help.
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I haven't once concerned myself on the topic of making a firearm unsafe.

It isn't a variant. Modifying a non variant won't make it a variant.

Like I said, I don't care what you believe. I don't mind the debate though.

Toodles.
 
fenceline said:
Like I said, I don't care what you believe. I don't mind the debate though.
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Lol. That makes for two of us again. I almost thought by now the mod's may have shut this sh!t show down as we've been beating a dead horse for quite a while but I guess if they're even paying attention they may be getting some entertainment value out of it as well. Like I said I think this thread has run it's course. Audios Fencerow maybe again one day.
 
PinaKaleada said:
What is the technical reason making trigger removal a bad idea? Is it that the safety is of different dimension than a standard AR?

Can someone elaborate?
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As I have previously noted, it takes a "standard" ar safety selector with the only difference being some material removal due to clearance issues. Most any common safety selector you so desire should be able to be modified to work (or who knows, if you're ordering a new build you may even be able to supply them with the safety of your choice for them to install... they have to modify the one they use anyways so it might not hurt to ask). No modification is required to the mid section of the selector switch that engages or makes contact with the trigger mechanism. As long as the clearance issue is properly accounted for a change of safety selector switches poses no additional safety concerns. A selector switch can be changed with NO NEED TO TOUCH ANYTHING to do with trigger installation.

The technical reasoning making trigger removal a bad idea is because of the complexity involved in the ability (or inability) to properly position the trigger pack during the re-installment process. Your standard two pin mounting design uses two pin locations to automatically and precisely position the trigger pack. Simple "plug and play". Anyone is capable. Improper positioning would create unsafe conditions due to trigger pack/selector switch engagement issues.

With the ATRS design only the front pin location is used and because of it there is no positive locating ability through the use of pins. The front pin actually becomes a pivot point. Exact positioning is absolutely essential for proper function and trigger engagement with the safety selector switch.

If the rear of the trigger assembly is set up even a few thousandth's of an inch too high it will cause the selector and the trigger to bind and potentially prevent you from even being able to switch the selector to the safe position thus rendering your sefety useless.

If the rear of the trigger assembly is set up even a few thousandth's of an inch too low it will cause the selector and the trigger the inability to to have any kind of engagement. Your selector will turn to the safe position but since there is no engagement your firearm WILL still fire when the trigger is pulled thus rendering your safety usless.

There is no flaw in the system chose to be used for positioning but the user ability to do it properly is essentially lost. As I've said before, I am not promoting effing with it. Just trying to give an understanding as to why. As Rick stated he will be glad to work something out for anyone interested.

I don't think any further elaboration on the topic is necessary.
 
PinaKaleada said:
What is the technical reason making trigger removal a bad idea? Is it that the safety is of different dimension than a standard AR?

Can someone elaborate?
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The technical reason is that the only way you can remove the trigger is to DAMAGE one of the trigger retention parts, which we will NOT sell separately and unless you know the secrets of the system and the geometry of the parts interface, very likely the lower itself will be damaged. This is not a warranty situation. SO if you just have to remove the trigger pack for some reason be aware that you are on your own in this regard.
The geometry of the trigger to safety to lower is NOT what is found in an AR as these rifles are NOT AR's. A standard AR trigger group install is idiot proof, although we have seen some guns that even that got screwed up on. The Modern Hunter and Varmint are NOT ARs in this respect.
I can't stress this fact enough.
The likelihood of the average Joe not causing damage to the rifle is extremely low and for no reason. The chances of causing the rifle to be unsafe after tinkering with the trigger pack is VERY HIGH. There is absolutely no reason at all to remove the trigger pack apart from a warranty situation.

As for all of the "expert speculation" on the possible classification impact of the rifle after mods have been made, I think I can safely say that no-one else has been down this path with the SFSS/RCMP to date as no-one else has designed and manufactured a semi auto rifle from scratch in Canada. We are the first to do this in Canadian history. Some Canadian companies have either exactly copied a firearm that already had the desired legal classification, hence no real risk was taken, or they had someone in a foreign country adapt a currently offered semi auto to comply with Canadian law in which case some risk was attached. The just over 4 years it took to get our rifles navigated through the FRT system was all breaking of new ground and was a massive and at times confrontational experience as what we did had never been done in Canada before.

We had to submit a "production" rifle for further inspection after the legal classification and FRT number was issued to "ensure that the production rifle was a faithful copy of the prototype rifle". This is what delayed our first production run release by yet another 6 months once we started to offer the rifles for sale .

We have done everything possible to protect the rifles from any possible re-classification and were instrumental in getting Blaney to add the 1 year clause to Bill C42. I am at a loss as to why a few guys just have a hard on to try and screw up for everyone what we spent years to achieve.



Is this horse finally dead enough yet?
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
Is this horse finally dead enough yet?
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Yup. Long ago. People just have a hard time accepting being told no. I'll tell them no more. I'm out of here. Rick, thanks for what you've accomplished and thanks for actually materializing what others think is so easy to do. I enjoy your product more and more every time I can freely take it out to the "back forty". You can't put a price on the freedom you have put in my hands. Thanks
 
The horse has been beaten to death three times over.
It should have simply been enough for Rick to say it once on the website and with the sale of every new rifle not to try to remove the trigger or your warranty is void. After that if anyone messes it up tinkering your warranty is void and full shop rates for parts and labor apply and that's it. Don't like it then don't buy the rifle.
 
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