Picture Thread - your earliest commonwealth milsurps

[bdft]

Imagine the damage to these cases at places like Isandlwana or Roarke's Drfit. Locked ammunition boxes broken apart with rifle butts. The ammo would have been covered in dirt, scattered on the ground, some of it damaged. Cases ripped apart as they tried to reload as fast as they could. Failures to eject. Failures to extract. All the while facing a screaming hoard of Zulu. The men who survived that probably came away with a very poor opinion of the Martini Henry and the British government.

 

[FoymountFarm]

There are some truly nice rifles in this thread.

US Model of 1917, the American Enfield, is comparatively young at 106 years and a late comer to the "Commonwealth".

This is an Baldwin Locomotive Works Eddystone Arsenal build. Between August 1917 and November 1918 Eddystone made just shy of 1.2 million of these rifles. The Baldwin factory stopped making P14 rifles in June 1917 and delivered their first M1917 on September 10th 1917. This one is stamped 9 17 and has serial number 6213, a very early rifle. This rifle would have become "Commonwealth" in 1940 or 1941 when Canada purchased 100,000 from the US. It is C/l\ marked on the butt stock, the forend is painted red with 30-06 stenciled on it and the Remington made model 1917 bayonet is both C/l\ and RCAF marked.

I like it...

 

[Claven2]

Imagine the damage to these cases at places like Isandlwana or Roarke's Drfit. Locked ammunition boxes broken apart with rifle butts. The ammo would have been covered in dirt, scattered on the ground, some of it damaged. Cases ripped apart as they tried to reload as fast as they could. Failures to eject. Failures to extract. All the while facing a screaming hoard of Zulu. The men who survived that probably came away with a very poor opinion of the Martini Henry and the British government.

I think the Roark’s drift men were quite happy with the martini. It replaced the snider, which was heavier, longer, slightly slower to load and fire, shorter range, less positive ejection, and also used a brass foil cartridge at the time - albeit wrapped in thin cardboard.

The foil cartridges would have been dented easier than drawn brass, but troopers would have had no basis of comparison, apart from muzzle loaders and the snider. The foil cases are also made undersized with expansion folds. They would have been more tolerant to dirt contamination than a drawn casing.

Also, in those days, the army would have had combat quartermasters whose job it was to open ammo crates (with a screwdriver) and parse out ammo. That system broke down at RD, as the qm’s weren’t distributing the ammo fast enough, and more people had to be put to the task. Not really the rifle’s or cartridge’s fault though.

 

[bearhunter]

I think the Roark’s drift men were quite happy with the martini. It replaced the snider, which was heavier, longer, slightly slower to load and fire, shorter range, less positive ejection, and also used a brass foil cartridge at the time - albeit wrapped in thin cardboard.

The foil cartridges would have been dented easier than drawn brass, but troopers would have had no basis of comparison, apart from muzzle loaders and the snider. The foil cases are also made undersized with expansion folds. They would have been more tolerant to dirt contamination than a drawn casing.

Also, in those days, the army would have had combat quartermasters whose job it was to open ammo crates (with a screwdriver) and parse out ammo. That system broke down at RD, as the qm’s weren’t distributing the ammo fast enough, and more people had to be put to the task. Not really the rifle’s or cartridge’s fault though.

I really like Martini action type rifles.

Very strong, simple and capable. One of the best military single shot rifles ever designed and built.

A person well trained on the platform could do very well against many of the bolt action rifles that became fashionable later.

No, I'm not saying the Martini is better but in the right hands and circumstances it could and did hold its own under stressful conditions.

 

[Bartok5]

.303 M10 ROSS Mk III, dated 1916.

 

[Claven2]

I really like Martini action type rifles.

Very strong, simple and capable. One of the best military single shot rifles ever designed and built.

A person well trained on the platform could do very well against many of the bolt action rifles that became fashionable later.

No, I'm not saying the Martini is better but in the right hands and circumstances it could and did hold its own under stressful conditions.

More than a few martinis in original calibre fought the Russians in 1980’s Afghanistan, which I find remarkable. Also, some versions (early mk1 martinis and Turkish contract martinis) did have a manual safety and could be carried loaded.

 

[BlackPowderBurner]

thought I'd share a little info on vintage rolled brass foil martini cartridges. Yes, you heard right, the cartridges the British issued with the Martini Henry Mk1, MkII and MkIII rifles throughout their front line service life were not drawn brass. The were a rolled brass foil cartridge with a blued steel base plug. Some colonies, late in the service life of the Martini (well after it was relegated to a second class arm in the UK), did eventually adopt a drawn brass cartridge, but they are very uncommon in military loadings. Of course, all the commercial loadings available for these guns, mostly made available once they hit the surplus market from brands like Dominion and Kynoch, were drawn brass.

Small point of correction (because I find it interesting) on an otherwise excellent summary; the steel base of the Boxer 577-.450 is actually Jappaned rather than blued. This apparently preserved it better from the elements than just fire blue. I’ll dig out my nicest example if you like as the coating layer is still visible.

 

[bearhunter]

More than a few martinis in original calibre fought the Russians in 1980’s Afghanistan, which I find remarkable. Also, some versions (early mk1 martinis and Turkish contract martinis) did have a manual safety and could be carried loaded.

Many Martini rifles were actually built in Afghanistan at the Afghan Royal Armory on British machines and under British supervision.

Many folks see these rifles and assume they are built in the Khyber Pass because of the engravings and stampings on the recievers. The only Afghan built Martini rifles I've seen were chambered for the 303 Brit.

I'm sure they had them chambered for other cartridges as well.

I saw one that had been rechambered and had the extractor reconfigured to shoot 7.62x54r at a gunshow and other than slip a round in the chamber to confirm, as the Russian round is larger, I didn't shoot it.

Thinking back, I should have bought that rifle as it was cheap. The fellow wanted less than the parts were worth. I was concerned that accuracy with surplus ammo would have been poor as the bullets were undersize for the bore.

 

[drm3m]