Piece of crap Hi-Power

i think about that perfectly restored 32 ford that some guy is terrified to drive because he doesnt want to get it scratched...i also think about my K98 which was a perfectly good gun with plenty of character/patina/history untill some goofball decided to reblue it...

as you can see, i think you should leave it. It looks like it's got some stories to tell. Of course, you could repark it and make it look like it sat in a locker all its life :(
 
Koldt,

Notwithstanding opinions to the contrary (which I duly respect for their purist "milsurp" approach), I would also offer the following pragmatic observation. With only 3 x 12(3) CA C1 SMGs in private hands that we know of, the gun in just about any conceivable condition will always be about as close to the "Holy Grail" of post-WW II Canadian military firearms collecting as you are going to find. In the grand scheme of things, the innate rarity and resultant collector value of your C1 SMG and accessories will always hold fast. With such a rare and desireable piece, I would suggest that there is zero difference between "original" and "refinished" condition. Any serious collector worth his salt would leap at the chance, regardless of whether or not the SMG has been reparked to factory specs. Given that CF weapons of that era were routinely refinished with non-serialized parts swapped to restore functionality, what the heck is the difference?

It is one thing to consider the relative values of an original versus reworked/refinished WW II collectible that is otherwise readily available. No one will dispute that a refinished P-08, K-98, Enfield, etc, is worth far less than an untouched factory original specimen - even if the original is somewhat "rough". But that is only because "unaltered" originals can still be had - albeit for a considerable premium. The same does not hold true in the case of our C1 SMGs. There are exactly 3 x CA examples on the Canadian market. Given that there are so few, and knowing that such firearms were routinely refinished during their service lives? I cannot honestly see the inherent collector value being unduly affected by having the gun refinished. At least not to the extent that it would make any substantive difference to the potential collector attractiveness nor resale value....

I mean really - can any of the "milsurp purists" on this board honestly state that they would offer less for a professionally refinished C1 SMG (assuming 12(3) status) than they would for a scarred and somewhat rusty original? Perhaps I am wrong, but I think not. My guess is that just about anyone with 12(3) status would leap at the chance to procure a genuine piece of Canadian military history regardless of original finish versus professional restoration. Add to that the fact that you and I both know that the current wear to the gun's finish occurred as a result of its use by an African nation rather than the CF, and the point becomes rather moot to me. But that's just me.

As I said, I had zero qualms about refinishing my own C1 SMG back to the original C.A.L. factory-fresh appearance. Like you, I prefer my modern military firearms to be as close to "new" in appearance as possible, despite the fact that (until recently) I fired them all on a regular basis. I reckon that if you or I were to offer up those SMGs for sale, they would sell in a heart-beat regardless of the finish. Based soley upon what they are and what they represent. The impact of refinishing (plus or minus) on the the sale price of such a rare piece would be inconsequential. Rarity trumps all else in this case. Kind of like a professionally restored FG-42 coming up for grabs. Perhaps an extreme comparison, but you get my point.

At the end of the day, it is your gun. Do whatever the heck makes you happy! Assuming that you don't chrome the darned thing or otherwise deviate from the maintenance that your SMG could/would have undergone while in military service, you are good to go.

Insistence upon "purity" is a luxury that can be applied to firearms which are still readily available (for a premium) in unaltered form. When you start talking 3 of a kind with nobody that I know of willing to sell? Refinishing the gun to factory specs IAW standard CF practice has no discernable consequence WRT potential resale value. Really - who is going to turn their nose up at your SMG (should you ever decide to sell), just because it was re-parked at some point - just like every other SMG that was ever in the CF inventory?

Food for thought. I certainly have no regrets about refinishing mine. It looks factory-fresh and that turns my personal crank.

Cheers,

Mark
 
I've got a Hi-Power that is almost identical to yours. I picked up a chromed Nazi-chicken marked Belgie frame with an unnumbered Inglis slide and barrel. I bought it from a board member for parts, but it such a good shooter I use it more than my other handguns. Now I have to decide whether to remove the chrome and park it or just blast some texture into the chrome and Arma-coat it.
At this point i'm leaning towards the Arma-coat.
BTW: I would keep the C1 the way it is....but that's just me :D
 
Bartok5 said:
It is one thing to consider the relative values of an original versus reworked/refinished WW II collectible that is otherwise readily available.
I mean really - can any of the "milsurp purists" on this board honestly state that they would offer less for a professionally refinished C1 SMG (assuming 12(3) status) than they would for a scarred and somewhat rusty original?
Click to expand...

Actually, yes. In all honesty, I would offer less for the refurbed one. As I said above, to me, once its been refinished, its no longer original, nor will it ever be. Just the same as I wouldn't touch a Russian capture Kar 98K with the shellac removed, but would like one with it intact. Your arguments are of course perfectly valid, but it just comes down to a matter of personal taste I suppse.
 
Looks like i have 2 more cents... I would not offer less for a refinished one. I woulds just pay a lot more for one with the original patina. A civvie refinishing, from this purists point of view, is about as desirable as if you chromed it...

plus, you say there are only 3 on the registry? the fact yours is the only un-refinished one should make it even rarer(ummm, unique) and thus more valuable as a fuction of its rarity. One day, someone will curse you for the extinction of the last truly original...
 
ollie said:
Looks like i have 2 more cents... I would not offer less for a refinished one. I woulds just pay a lot more for one with the original patina. A civvie refinishing, from this purists point of view, is about as desirable as if you chromed it...

plus, you say there are only 3 on the registry? the fact yours is the only un-refinished one should make it even rarer(ummm, unique) and thus more valuable as a fuction of its rarity. One day, someone will curse you for the extinction of the last truly original...
Click to expand...
...as they feed it into the shredder :shock:
 
I am envisioning something post modern. Something that Uday and Qusay would have been proud of. Something say, 22k gold plate, with a touch of platinum inlay of the scroll work, with our course, the ubiquitous ivory scrimshawed grips.

Back to the HP for a minute.

I just received, from another good buddy, one of the first PAMS for the "Pistol, Automatic, Browning, F.N. 9mm H.P."

So I have kinda completed the series of one from WW2 1945 dated, one from Korea 1953 dated, and one 'present' 1973 dated. I am sure there were some ammendments, etc, but these will fit nicely in the collection of junk I have.
hppams.jpg
 
ollie said:
Looks like i have 2 more cents... I would not offer less for a refinished one. I woulds just pay a lot more for one with the original patina. A civvie refinishing, from this purists point of view, is about as desirable as if you chromed it...

The subject of resale value is largely moot, as "resale" is unlikely in the near-term. With a grand total of three 12(3) CA C1 SMGs in private hands in Canada, I don't think that Koldt, Mark36Hamon, or myself are looking to sell in the short term. But let's make believe for a minute. If one of us did decide to sell, and it happened to be a "refinished" example of the three? Just how would that fetch "less" than a non-refinished version? Can someone give me the "book value" of an "original" versus "refinished" 12(3) CA C1 SMG on the Canadian collector's market? Nope - you can't. Because there is no such book value. It is entirely a matter of what the Canadian Militaria collector with the requisite status and the deepest pockets would be willing to pay.

Aside from the above, just how would the "milsurp purists" determine that a gun with 30 years of "military assistance sales" service in Zaire hadn't been previously refinished overseas? I would be willing to bet that none of the three C1 SMGs in private Canadian hands bear their original C.A.L. factory parkerizing. So what is the difference if they are subjected to yet another professional parkerizing? Would a Canadian militaria collector assign a premium to the fact that Koldt's SMG's finish is scarred/worn/rusted as a result of the weapon's diffident use by African (vice Canadian) forces? Who really cares? At the end of the day, the C1 SMGs "are what they are". Most in-service weapons were refinished multiple times. Knowing that, I would ask how a less than perfect finish arising from 1960s use/abuse by the Zaire Army somehow confers "special status" upon a basic C1 SMG. Sorry, but I'm simply not seeing it. I'd much rather have a pristine example that appears to have undergone refinishing at No 3 Workshop in Montreal - as most C1 SMGs did during their life-cycle. Heck - If we weren't talking about this subject honestly, and if the subject of the discussion weren't 3 of a kind, nobody would know the difference.

At the end of the day, how is a "civvie re-parkerizing" any different than a "couldn't give a crap" arsenal refinishing by No 3 Workshop. Same prep, same chemicals, same result.


plus, you say there are only 3 on the registry? the fact yours is the only un-refinished one should make it even rarer(ummm, unique) and thus more valuable as a fuction of its rarity. One day, someone will curse you for the extinction of the last truly original...
Click to expand...

As I've previously alluded, I highly doubt it. There is nothing "original" about those three 12(3) CA C1 SMGs, aside from their markings. They were sold to Zaire in the 1960s as part of a military assistance sale. chances are that they have already been refinished by the Africans at least once. "Unfinished" is a relative and largely meaningless term when it comes to Canadian service weapons. Most were refinished at some point in their extensive service lives. So the question is really whether a collector is willing to pay a "premium" for a "patina" produced by the weapon's service within an African Army - where it may very well have been refinished multiple times. "Original finish"? There is no guarantee of any such thing when it comes to the previous family of Canadian Small Arms. They were repeatedly refinished at the arsenal level. So what's the difference?

With only three examples available to 12(3) owners, can somebody tell me the difference in resale value between a C1 SMG with African "rust patina" and an example that has been professionally reparkerized (for potentially the 2nd or 3rd time)? Not that it really matters, since none of us are selling at the present time. Still, it represents an interesting hypothetical situation. Assuming that you could buy it, what sort of premium above and beyond the hypothetical base-line value would you "milsurp purists" be willing to pay for Koldt's "African patina" C1 SMG "as is", versus my factory-fresh refinished version?

Just curious.

Cheers,

Mark C
 
Of course I ran this past 3 ex-plumbers and 2 ex-stores guys. All 5 guys reiterated exactly as you are saying Mark. We, Canada, DND, CF, always 're-finished'/made like new, anything that we sold or gave away. Therefore these C1s would have been parked before going to Zaire/Congo back in the 60's.

Which of course brings us to a whole 'nother discussion.... How come we spend a lot of time/effort/money on stuff before selling? Most of the time we gave it away. And why isn't it in the best shape while our troops have it???
 
Guess I have to ammend my last statement about the PAMS.. I can't be a wise guy yet :D ....Apparently there is a new one.

Report to follow :mrgreen: .

Also, don't know if anybody noticed, but the 1945 dated one, is also stamped
14 Armoured Regt.
King's Own Calgary Regt. 8)
 
I say if you can copy the original finish then refinish it. #### whos to say it hasnt been reparked a few times before you allready at the aresenal.

By the way who's was the guy who reparked it, green park is not too common these days I'd like to send him some stuff as well.
 
I'll have to let the fella who did the work contact you should he want to. Sorry.

There are enough guys doing it now though. I am told there was a guy in BC that held a quicky course for a few other dudes. Again sorry, I don't have any further information than that.
 
The other argument that guys use when they refurb a milsurp is: If you're not selling it, who cares about the resale value?

I think your C1 looks good as is, but I too share your uneasyness seeing scratched up metal and owning things when they aren't mint-ish. Either way, I envy you for having the oppertunity to make that tough decision.
 
koldt said:
Of course I ran this past 3 ex-plumbers and 2 ex-stores guys. All 5 guys reiterated exactly as you are saying Mark.
Click to expand...

Well then, I rest my case. "Original" only applies where there is a reasonable expectation of the original manufacturer's finish having endured over the life-cycle of the firearm to date. No such thing applies to the FNC1A1/FNC2A1/C1 SMG family of firearms. Particularly as applies to weapons which were sold new to the Congo/Zaire in the 1960's. There is no such thing as "original" where our three C1 SMGs are concerned, as they are all receiver-stamped with British proof-marks. That is a function of those SMGs having been reimported through SIDEM UK, and having been British proof-house stamped on the receiver body.

The same applies to the minty 8L series FNC1A1 rifles that Commonwealth Militaria still sells. Those are all ex-OPP ERT rifles that were sold off as surplus to SIDEM UK (a Brit surplus arms dealer) back in the day. All of those rifles were stamped with British Proof-Marks on the underside of the barrel. No longer "Canadian issue", at the time they were fair game for re-importation. Aside from the Brit proof-marks, they are all 100% C.A.L. FN C1A1 8L-series rifles. But wait! They have Brit proofs!!! Does that make those FNC1A1 rifles anything less than "original"????

The exact same applies to the 3 x C1 SMGs in private hands. They were sold as part of a military assistance sale to an African nation back in the 1960s. They were used and abused, and likely refinished at some point in their service lives. And then they were bought up as surplus by SIDEM UK - along with countless Brit Sterling examples. SIDEM duly converted the trigger groups to semi-auto, stamped the receivers with Brit proof-marks, and them sold them around the world - including Canada.

Refinishing one of the three existing CA C1 SMGs in Canada is a moot point. The guns all have British proof-marks stamped into the receiver. In that sense alone, they are most certainly not "Original". Whatever "original" means......

Blah, Blah, Blah..... Original versus Butchered..... Etc, Etc, Etc.

Koldt - re-park your SMG. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain in terms of personal satisfaction.

I expect that should you ever choose to sell your C1 SMG? Nobody in the running will be pontificating about the "original finish" versus "as is" condition.

FWIW as a fellow C1 SMG owner.

Cheers,

Mark C
 
Whatever. Arguements like that lead to ALOT of milsurps I pass over at shows, stores, etc. If it's seen bubba, my interest evaporates no matter the rarity.

In "as it left service" condition it is collectable. In "as it left bubba's blueing/chroming/parking tank" it is just a bubbatized item that used to be collectable. I don;t care if there are three or three hundred thousand of them - changes nothing in my mind.

And besides, you are assuming three will be the only ones available ever. Who knows? Maybe a Conservative Gov't or perhaps Western Separation changes all that within your lifetime? :shock:
 
amen. a "as it left service" finish adds to its collectability. I've got a mosin with stamps galore, and, in my eyes, each one adds a little more to it. And like some broke embattled african nation had the resources to refinish thier guns when they got a couple scratches on 'em. Even if it had been, it just adds to its history, character and collectibility in my eyes, something that any bubbatizing will remove.

thats the last time i even look at this post! I've contributed so many of my .02 cents im going broke! :lol: and then i'll never be able to afford a C1 when the west separates or the conservatives say it's ok to have guns again!
 
Hey guys, I have an extra Canadian Army Sten PAM from 1953. Basically looks the same as the blue one in the pic, but it's for the Sub Gun (Sten). Close to same shape, no bend etc.

I know this ain't the EE, but if any of you fellas here in Milsurp want it, send me your address and it yours.

It is an extra of mine and it's not like I wear them out studying every day :lol:

Ollie, here's a chanse to get your monies worth out of this thread :mrgreen: take it....
 
koldt, What a peice of CRAP! I'll take it off your hands. I'll take that other one that you haven't shot too. (there must be something wrong with it)




:mrgreen:

:lol:

Good stuff.
 
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