Pistol accuracy with reloads

Mr. Bean

Mr. Bean

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
5   0   0
So wen to range other day with CZ75 to ensure sighting for IPSC event. I shot factory American Eagle 124 gr, some factory lead rounds that were laying around for years, and my reloads to get a comparison.

I use 124 gr. Berry TMJ with 3.9 grs. Tightgroup loaded to 1.105 OAL. What I found was the reloads grouped in about 3-4 " at 15 m. the two factory loads were easily 1- 1.5 inches tighter.

I dont seperate cases so maybe this is the wildcard.

Just wondering what I could do to improve accuracy? All rounds I load run flawless but as I am not the best shot, a smaller group would certainly be beneficial.

I should also mention I load on a Dillon 650.

Cheers and thanks for help.
 
Try some more expensive projectiles as an experiment.

Hornady XTP or Sierra Power Jackets are available in 124g.

My experience is that the cast/plated projectiles are not as accurate as "real" jacketed projectiles.

As long as the brass is all good I haven't seem much advantage in headstamp sorting pistol brass.
 
Have you tried load development with your pistol? how did you come to 3.9 grains?

I shoot 40cal and use a turret press with mounted disc thrower to reload. Since I only have two disc settings that are within the range of the manual for the powder I am using, 4.8grs or 5.2grns, I loaded 10 rounds at each setting. At 12 yards the results in groupings were 2.5" at 4.8grn and 1.5" at 5.2grns.
 
I came up with 3.9 grs to make minor power factor (actually around 130 PF). I have loaded 3.7 and 3.8 but wanted that extra safety margin at the chrono test at matches.

I have used Frontier 124 gr. but never really did an accuracy test, and none left right now. I could up powder a bit. Do you figure OAL will make much difference. With shadow they say shorter is better, and as stated so far, no malfuntions at this size. That being said I noticed the AE factory was longer, but not sure exact size and it ran fine.
 
My pistol likes to be loaded closer to max loads for accuracy. Sounds like your loading light for speed. You may have to try some different weights of bullets to improve the groups at a light load.
 
I know that both bullets you tried were 124 grain, but try and load some 147 berry's or other plated bullets. That's what most guys are running for IPSC for the same power factor you are after. My CZ is very accurate with 147 berry's, 3.3 grains titegroup and winchester primers, same 130 power factor. Maybe you can get a handful of bullets from a buddy for testing? I have no idea what part of the country you are in, but ask and someone will offer up some to help i'm sure.
 
Sounds like you need to do some load development. Dont just try one load and say the bullet is not accurate. I tried 4 different powders with various loads for the same 125gr lead bullet in my pistol and accuracy varied greatly depending on the load.
I had a good load at 4.0gr of hp-38 but just recently switched to 3.8gr of titegroup due to better accuracy and cleaner burning powder.
All pistols will be slightly different so what works for one might not work for another.
 
Sorting cases does make a difference if you're looking for top accuracy.

9x19 is very sensitive to over-sizing due to the taper of the case. Don't size more than you need to for reliable feeding. This can make a big difference.

Cone shaped bullets like the XTP or Zero JHP-C tend to be a bit more accurate then RN.

Seating depth can affect accuracy.

I have also found that accuracy is better near the max load. I shoot 4.5 gr. of Titegroup with a 124 gr. bullet. N320 is the same burn rate as Titegroup, but meters more consistently and fills the case better. This is what I get at 25 yards out of my G17L when everything is adjusted properly:

IMG_0894.jpg


It would probably be tighter out of a Ransom rest... This was fired holding in in a cheap Caldwell Pistolero rest.
 
thats some good shootin kombayotch.

I will scrounge up a few 147 for comparison. As IPSC is a speed and accuracy game, loading to max seems to defeat the purpose of at least one of those disciplines. But if way more accurate, will load some hot ones.

I am not prepared to sort cases ( not enough time or patience). I know I dont have a tack driver but from what I understand, I should be getting no worse than say 3" @ 15 m. Even a lousy shot like me ;)
 
Its a common misconception that light loads automatically mean faster shooting. It's very dependent on the characteristics of the recoil. The load, the mechanical characteristics of the pistol and the way you hold it all come into play.

I developed a bunch of loads for the pistol with 115, 124 and 147 gr. bullets using a bunch of different powders and different charges of each. I picked the most accurate ones and then shot them side-by-side.

Different loads felt different... even with the same bullet. Some felt lighter, but had more muzzle flip. This was often true with a lighter charge of powder with the same bullet. The gun kicked less, but the muzzle flipped more... likely because of the slower movement of the slide. With the higher charge, the slide cycled more quickly and while the kick felt harder, there was less muzzle flip and it was easier to stay on target. Sometimes two loads that produced the same velocity with the same bullet recoil very differently also. Power Pistol often produced more felt recoil and a lot more muzzle blast and muzzle flip than TG or N320 driving the bullet at the same speed.

Its something you need to test for yourself in your own pistols... don't just go by how the recoil feels, shoot groups. Loads don't just need to be tuned to the pistols mechanical characteristics, they also need to be tuned to the shooter's. Sometimes the hotter load will work better with the cadence of your shooting.
 
kombayotch said:
Its a common misconception that light loads automatically mean faster shooting. It's very dependent on the characteristics of the recoil. The load, the mechanical characteristics of the pistol and the way you hold it all come into play.

I developed a bunch of loads for the pistol with 115, 124 and 147 gr. bullets using a bunch of different powders and different charges of each. I picked the most accurate ones and then shot them side-by-side.

Different loads felt different... even with the same bullet. Some felt lighter, but had more muzzle flip. This was often true with a lighter charge of powder with the same bullet. The gun kicked less, but the muzzle flipped more... likely because of the slower movement of the slide. With the higher charge, the slide cycled more quickly and while the kick felt harder, there was less muzzle flip and it was easier to stay on target. Sometimes two loads that produced the same velocity with the same bullet recoil very differently also. Power Pistol often produced more felt recoil and a lot more muzzle blast and muzzle flip than TG or N320 driving the bullet at the same speed.

Its something you need to test for yourself in your own pistols... don't just go by how the recoil feels, shoot groups. Loads don't just need to be tuned to the pistols mechanical characteristics, they also need to be tuned to the shooter's. Sometimes the hotter load will work better with the cadence of your shooting.
Click to expand...


This is a great post that perfectly explains the challenges of load development in a pistol. I find my fastest cycling loads are my most accurate loads regardless of felt recoil or muzzle velocity.
 
kombayotch said:
Sorting cases does make a difference if you're looking for top accuracy.

9x19 is very sensitive to over-sizing due to the taper of the case. Don't size more than you need to for reliable feeding. This can make a big difference.

Cone shaped bullets like the XTP or Zero JHP-C tend to be a bit more accurate then RN.

Seating depth can affect accuracy.

I have also found that accuracy is better near the max load. I shoot 4.5 gr. of Titegroup with a 124 gr. bullet. N320 is the same burn rate as Titegroup, but meters more consistently and fills the case better. This is what I get at 25 yards out of my G17L when everything is adjusted properly:

IMG_0894.jpg


It would probably be tighter out of a Ransom rest... This was fired holding in in a cheap Caldwell Pistolero rest.
Click to expand...

Man, that's the kind of groups I'm trying to get. What kind of gun is that?
 
Travel240z said:
My pistol likes to be loaded closer to max loads for accuracy. Sounds like your loading light for speed. You may have to try some different weights of bullets to improve the groups at a light load.
Click to expand...

+1 on different bullet weights, I have had pistols show a strong preference for one over the others.


Mark
 
147's have a longer straight section than 124's.. lending to better alignment in the barrel, although careful 124gr loading can also produce excellent results.. I load 124 BDX, 5.1\5,2 gr Silhouette @ 1.125" OAL in my Shadow, and CZ85.. will easily shoot 2" groups at 25 yds all day long
 
From what I've been told, the rifling twist on CZ barrels tends to favour lighter bullets for greater accuracy. I'd suggest trying 115gr bullets and see how they perform.
 
Check your crimp. If you are over-crimping you may not notice much accuracy degradation with jacketed bullets, but you will with plated. Make sure that you are only crimping enough to straighten out the case mouth bell. You should not be deforming the bullet or crushing into the copper plating. If you're sizing the cases correctly, case-drag will be more than enough to prevent bullet set-back in the firing cycle.

Also, check to make sure that your chambered round is not in contact with the lead-in on the rifling. CZ's do like `em a little short, but you still have to check for contact. You can do this with a magic marker with the barrel out of the gun. Paint the bullet head in a loaded round, drop it in the chamber and rotate it with gentle forward pressure on the round. If there is any scuffing on the bullet you will need to shorten, reducing charge weight accordingly and of course, chrono'ing and checking for pressure.

Good luck.
 
Mr. Bean said:
Do you figure OAL will make much difference. With shadow they say shorter is better, and as stated so far, no malfuntions at this size. That being said I noticed the AE factory was longer, but not sure exact size and it ran fine.
Click to expand...

Yes it makes a difference, at least with my shadow. I don't reload myself I buy BDX ammo(factory reloaded), but I did get a batch of ammo(for cheap) that was seated a little long and it would not even chamber in the gun. I traded it in for some regular stuff seated properly and 11000 rounds later never had 1 malfunction that was ammo related(just operator retardedness!)

Since I don't own a caliper and the other ammo is long gone I can't tell you what the OAL is though. sorry!
 
I load 4.4gr of Titegroup with AIM 124gr plated bullets at an OAL of 1.1.09" - I get pretty good accuracy. I came up with this recipe for my NP-29 which has a heavy slide and since I started shooting IPSC recently, I hope it will give more transparency to my shooting and I am sure it has more to do with my shooting prowess (or lack thereof) than the rounds I use.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom