Pistol grip 20 inch long shotguns legal? Maybe!

=(M-1)=

=(M-1)=

Regular
Location
Southern Alberta.
I noticed that there appears to be an interesting loop hole in the firearm length laws that allows a 23 inch long lever action to be non-restricted and available here in Canada-land.w:h:

Primarily because it has not been modified in length by its owner, instead by the manufacture. As all Canada laws in regards to length relate to the firearm being "modified, folded or telescoped", non of this occurs from a manufactured pistol grip shotgun with a 12.5 inch barrel.

So I raise the question, Why not bug Dominion to release a Factory pistol grip pump action with a 12.5 inch barrel? And why not get you hands on some of those 23 inch long lever action rifles?! Then give them away for FREE!!! :D ...ok never mind the free bit, but the rest would be awesome!!!
 
=(M-1)= said:
I noticed that there appears to be an interesting loop hole in the firearm length laws that allows a 23 inch long lever action to be non-restricted and available here in Canada-land.w:h:

Primarily because it has not been modified in length by its owner, instead by the manufacture. As all Canada laws in regards to length relate to the firearm being "modified, folded or telescoped", non of this occurs from a manufactured pistol grip shotgun with a 12.5 inch barrel.

So I raise the question, Why not bug Dominion to release a Factory pistol grip pump action with a 12.5 inch barrel? And why not get you hands on some of those 23 inch long lever action rifles?! Then give them away for FREE!!! :D ...ok never mind the free bit, but the rest would be awesome!!!
Click to expand...

modified longer and then modified shorter is an interesting question too
 
An Ounce of Practicality

Oh, I do sup[pose I could try and do some ballistic homework to carry this argument further.... short of someone chopping down an old shotgun past its days... and chop so incrementally.... to witness the spread of either / both slugs and pellets.... for such short shotguns....

My guess is the reason we don't see such short shotguns for critical defense or any other reason is that they spray a big 'ol mess and don't stop anything.

Seriously, @ home... there becomes a point where a shotgun would be pointless, and more importantly, stop nobody, where a handgu nwould do the trick.

Assuming you have any time to react to a home invasion or a bear in the outback... ultimately stopping your adversary is priority #1. So then... assumption made... you have time to react at home...

Grab your longer home defense, or full length shotgun, and take care of business.... for at least 80 Canadians, I suspect the long shotgun is the only choice (That is an inside joke... concerning the waiting lists throughout Canada for Kel Tec to get the KSG shipped to importers... I'm somewhere beyond # 80 in line on my favorite importers KSG wait list)...

Shotgun length should not be a concern within the home domain...

And as for the outback... I'd kindly suggest if such a small shotgun is so convenient to pack away.... therein lies its drawback.... A critical bear defense shotgun, or as I wrote somewhere else, I'd prefer a Marlin .45-70... but if a shotgun can so easily be put away in a backpack... chances are that is where it would, unfortunately, be located when needed.

SO then... if the question about the short shotgun is the ability to own an shotgun so short.... for the sake of the legal right... that is one question.... and apparently answered here by the person who asked...

If the more important question... does such a short shotgun have any utility and could it actually save your life either in the woods or at home.... I have my doubts.
 
^^my 12" side by side with its cylinder bores keep the groups tight enough to do the job quite easily within 10-15 yards....

Good enough for me considering such a compact package. I think its safe to say that a 12 gauge even at 8.5 inches isn't something to sniff at.
 
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Missing the main point. There are NO LOOPHOLES. We as law abiding citizens work withing the law as written. I am sure if you and 300 other people commit to the shotgun by prepaying perhaps Canada Ammo will look into it.
 
YourAreInOilCountry said:
Oh, I do sup[pose I could try and do some ballistic homework to carry this argument further.... short of someone chopping down an old shotgun past its days... and chop so incrementally.... to witness the spread of either / both slugs and pellets.... for such short shotguns....

My guess is the reason we don't see such short shotguns for critical defense or any other reason is that they spray a big 'ol mess and don't stop anything.

Seriously, @ home... there becomes a point where a shotgun would be pointless, and more importantly, stop nobody, where a handgu nwould do the trick.

Assuming you have any time to react to a home invasion or a bear in the outback... ultimately stopping your adversary is priority #1. So then... assumption made... you have time to react at home...

Grab your longer home defense, or full length shotgun, and take care of business.... for at least 80 Canadians, I suspect the long shotgun is the only choice (That is an inside joke... concerning the waiting lists throughout Canada for Kel Tec to get the KSG shipped to importers... I'm somewhere beyond # 80 in line on my favorite importers KSG wait list)...

Shotgun length should not be a concern within the home domain...

And as for the outback... I'd kindly suggest if such a small shotgun is so convenient to pack away.... therein lies its drawback.... A critical bear defense shotgun, or as I wrote somewhere else, I'd prefer a Marlin .45-70... but if a shotgun can so easily be put away in a backpack... chances are that is where it would, unfortunately, be located when needed.

SO then... if the question about the short shotgun is the ability to own an shotgun so short.... for the sake of the legal right... that is one question.... and apparently answered here by the person who asked...

If the more important question... does such a short shotgun have any utility and could it actually save your life either in the woods or at home.... I have my doubts.
Click to expand...


First off, my use is for packing it on a quad, and not for defence at that moment, the quad can easily scare off or out run most problems faster than you can draw a gun. But if you break down or your party gets lost and runs out of fuel, (almost happened to me last week) then you’re walking home.
Ask any professional out door security detail that has dealt with bears. Most will fire only one shot at a charging bear, and they do it at the do-or-die moment when it only yards from them. because a bear can cover 50 yards in 3.5 seconds, your better of to take one steady shot up close, than to risk being unsteady for that shot because you’ve been blasting away. Basically one steady shot, 15 yards, big target, and use a slug (many of the pros do) buck shot can not shatter bear bone where as a slug easily can, and the shoulders and upper spinal column is your target, because unlike the head, they don’t move back and forth when the bear is running at you, and the goal is not exactly to kill, just to immobilize it. and for your information a slug meets its primary acceleration in the first 12 inches of barrel, and at point blank will kill, disable or significantly hinder most any creature you meet with one structural bone shot to the spine, shoulder support or upper arm (all in one target rich area above the head) so forget the flesh, they will survive long enough to kill you. As for home defence: Not really an issue for me. But if it is for you, just choose a weak gun with hollow points or BB buck shot so you don’t end up killing your neighbours or kid in the next room.
 
Tyockell18 said:
^^my 12" side by side with its cylinder bores keep the groups tight enough to do the job quite easily within 10-15 yards....

Good enough for me considering such a compact package. I think its safe to say that a 12 gauge even at 8.5 inches isn't something to sniff at.
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I totally agree. Work in close with one good steady slug shot at the target rich sweet spot jam packed with structurally significant bones (from the shoulder to the spinal base of the skull) immobilize then rug that sucker!
 
CanAm said:
Because they "may" be restricted.
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I see, not worth you risking a lofty purchase that could end up getting confiscated. But as you may know, the leaver actions are already in Canada and are being distributed as "non-restricted", I discovered one for sale at one of the local sporting arms stores, a .375 magnum measuring 23 inchs that I could have bought, but want a 44 magnum that packs more punch, but would rather a shotgun frankly. Just though it was worth a mention, after all, the ice has already been broken by the lever action.
 
=(M-1)= said:
I see, not worth you risking a lofty purchase that could end up getting confiscated. But as you may know, the leaver actions are already in Canada and are being distributed as "non-restricted", I discovered one for sale at one of the local sporting arms stores, a .375 magnum measuring 23 inchs that I could have bought, but want a 44 magnum that packs more punch, but would rather a shotgun frankly. Just though it was worth a mention, after all, the ice has already been broken by the lever action.
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Sorry, you do not understand

shotgun with <16" bbl (per RCMP) + pistol grip = "maybe" (per RCMP) handgun
12" bbl rifle + short buttstock = non-restricted

26" doesn't really even factor in directly

we have discussed this to death in several threads.
 
CanAm said:
Sorry, you do not understand

shotgun with <16" bbl (per RCMP) + pistol grip = "maybe" (per RCMP) handgun
rifle + short buttstock = non-restricted

26" doesn't really even factor in directly

we have discussed this to death in several threads.
Click to expand...

I see, that makes sense in terms of business. RCMP seems to interpret the law as they see fit, regardless of what it says. because in the eyes of the law as written there is no difference between the two guns, nether one nor the other is mentioned with any notation of difference. but I do understand your hesitance.
 
=(M-1)= said:
I see, that makes sense in terms of business. RCMP seems to interpret the law as they see fit, regardless of what it says. because in the eyes of the law as written there is no difference between the two guns, nether one nor the other is mentioned with any notation of difference. but I do understand your hesitance.
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I don't agree with the RCMP, but it stands in black and white in the FRT (just ask Dlask).

If I were to play the FRT lab for a moment, the PG is a modification to fire the gun with one hand (see definition of handgun) the inclusion of a buttstock, no matter how small, on the Rossi indicates it is designed to be fired from the shoulder, and not with the action of one hand, thus is not a handgun. That is the way they see it.

They use the word "may" in the FRT notes because they know they are on thin ice, and it has never been tested in court.
 
CanAm said:
I don't agree with the RCMP, but it stands in black and white in the FRT.

If I were to play the FRT lab for a moment, the PG is a modification to fire the gun with one hand (see definition of handgun) the inclusion of a buttstock, no matter how small on the Rossi indicates it is designed to be fired from the shoulder, and not with the action of one hand, thus is not a handgun. That is the way they see it.
Click to expand...

Understood, sorry to bother you with a beaten to death subject, I've been away for a bit so I guess I missed it.
 
Talking about short barreled shotguns, I read years ago about the Street Sweeper, a .12ga. 12 shot shotgun with rotary magazine that you wind up. Any way they were used in South Africa and some of them had barrels as short as 5" . A well known Edmonton military surplus store sold them brand new back in the mid 80's with a 18" barrel, back then I could have bought one wholesale for about $699.99 I have no idea what they are worth now, they are probably prohibited now.
 
Rosthern said:
Talking about short barreled shotguns, I read years ago about the Street Sweeper, a .12ga. 12 shot shotgun with rotary magazine that you wind up. Any way they were used in South Africa and some of them had barrels as short as 5" . A well known Edmonton military surplus store sold them brand new back in the mid 80's with a 18" barrel, back then I could have bought one wholesale for about $699.99 I have no idea what they are worth now, they are probably prohibited now.
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Yes they are listed in the prohibs. :(
 
YourAreInOilCountry said:
Oh, I do sup[pose I could try and do some ballistic homework to carry this argument further.... short of someone chopping down an old shotgun past its days... and chop so incrementally.... to witness the spread of either / both slugs and pellets.... for such short shotguns....

My guess is the reason we don't see such short shotguns for critical defense or any other reason is that they spray a big 'ol mess and don't stop anything.

Seriously, @ home... there becomes a point where a shotgun would be pointless, and more importantly, stop nobody, where a handgu nwould do the trick.

Assuming you have any time to react to a home invasion or a bear in the outback... ultimately stopping your adversary is priority #1. So then... assumption made... you have time to react at home...

Grab your longer home defense, or full length shotgun, and take care of business.... for at least 80 Canadians, I suspect the long shotgun is the only choice (That is an inside joke... concerning the waiting lists throughout Canada for Kel Tec to get the KSG shipped to importers... I'm somewhere beyond # 80 in line on my favorite importers KSG wait list)...

Shotgun length should not be a concern within the home domain...

And as for the outback... I'd kindly suggest if such a small shotgun is so convenient to pack away.... therein lies its drawback.... A critical bear defense shotgun, or as I wrote somewhere else, I'd prefer a Marlin .45-70... but if a shotgun can so easily be put away in a backpack... chances are that is where it would, unfortunately, be located when needed.

SO then... if the question about the short shotgun is the ability to own an shotgun so short.... for the sake of the legal right... that is one question.... and apparently answered here by the person who asked...

If the more important question... does such a short shotgun have any utility and could it actually save your life either in the woods or at home.... I have my doubts.
Click to expand...

I'd like to know your basis of fact that somehow 'a shotgun' is inferior to 'a handgun' somehow for home defence.
Your rather questionable grasp of terminal ballistics is rather outstanding IMO.
We could be discussing a 410 shotgun versus the 454 Casull? One could also be comparing a 10 gauge Roadblocker versus a Ruger 22 LR Mk II? Come forward with a better example maybe.
I suspect most of us here would probably question your statements.
I understand you prefer a 45-70 and that's just fine.
SAM_0011-1-1-1-1.jpg

^According to your words it's a miracle that this fella croaked from a 20inch barrelled 12 gauge smoothbore shotgun at 75 yards btw.
But it did, and it only took one slug to carry out the deed. He might very well of had a poor opinion of shotguns, just like yourself.
 
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=(M-1)= The obvious thing is for you to get a formal ruling from the RCMP. If it goes your way, great. If not, then you can decide if you want to initiate the process for a court challenge.
 
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