With my modern sporter on the way and my distaste for cleaning rifles after everytime I use them. I am wondering if anyone has used the superlative arms piston conversion kit. I will be building a 6.5 grendel. Just looking for pros and cons from people here that have used or own piston rifles. I know there is less cleaning involved. Looking for accuracy and reliability.
Piston conversions
- Thread starter greg olmstead
- Start date
alberta tactical rifle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- calgary alberta
The problem with ALL retrofit piston systems is that each 1 is totally proprietary, which is all well and fine as long as the manufacturer exists. In the early 2000's when piston conversions for AR were the rage we saw no less than 80 different makers at SHOT Show, 2 years later the herd had been thinned by 75% and it is still thinning out today.
The issue many of us see with retro fit piston systems is that the AR15 was never designed with piston systems in mind, hence they can get very tricky to keep working well.
The key to keeping your AR running clean is don't run garbage ammo through it. The 6.5 Grendel that we have been running at PRS competitions for the last 2 years has been cleaned exactly twice in its lifetime. Once before the start of each season. We have been shooting the Hornady custom ammo exclusively but will be switching to reloads now that we have a couple thousand casings to reload. There is absolutely no reason to clean everytime you use it.
If surgical clean is what you really think you need better to purchase an ultrasonic cleaner and drop the upper and bolt assembly in for 15 minutes, blow it all dry , relube and go back to shooting. A far better and less expensive investment that offers many uses in my opinion.
I had the same anxieties when looking for my first ar and was convinced a piston model was far superior. I was so WRONG. The DI feature of the AR is what can make it accurate and soft shooting after cutting some gas. I'm lazy as !@#$ and my rifles get a rough wiping and lube every 500 rounds or so. I would say even that is overdoing it. They run perfectly fine as is.
ThatM305Guy
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- North Texas
I too plan on a piston setup eventually. But instead of spending extra coin on a conversion, I'm going to wait for the Badger instead.
I think I just notice the soot to much on my stag 10 because of the nickel bolt carrier and all that soot just looks dirty and I have the urge to clean it. A piston system would stop that. I wont be going piston on that. Impossible to find a .936 piston block and I'm very fond of the lantac BCG
And you can fire 100x more than that with piston system. And it will be easier to clean , less junk in action to interfere with action functioning.
Many adepts of DI simply don't understand that AR15 is not true conventional DI. "Gas is routed from a port in the barrel through a gas tube, directly to a chamber inside the bolt carrier. The bolt within the bolt carrier is fitted with piston rings to contain the gas. In effect, the bolt and carrier act as a gas piston and cylinder." I.e it's a hybrid system.
Here lies the problem. Retrofitting this hybrid system with piston in a proper way requires design changes to bolt and carrier, because you won't need two pistons and cylinders. Such big changes are not good for the system that had already been perfected as hybrid DI system.
To OP.
I'm a big fan of modern piston systems and I hate to see all the junk in action, when AR15 full cleaning takes more time than ww2 SVT-40. However there's nothing perfect in this world. AR15 has several major fails in design simply because design is outdated, junk in the action is one of them. So you will have to make peace with it. Do simplified cleaning. Just barrel and wiping bcg with clp. Once in a season do full cleaning. OR buy ACR, XCR, RDB, vz58 or Type 81 and enjoy fully cleaned rifles in ten time less efforts than with ar15. These conversions to ar15 are fun but not really practical in long run because third party designs might not stay long. Another option is rifles like Ruger piston driven ARs. At least here you get proper R&D, testing, quality and support from big manufacturer.
Piston conversions do nothing useful and cleaning is overrated. Keeping the bolt carrier well lubricated is far more important. Cleaning to a "white glove" standard and scraping carbon is unnecessary.
The late Pat Rogers put tens of thousands of rounds through the rifle known as Filthy 14 with negligible cleaning:
http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/
The late Pat Rogers put tens of thousands of rounds through the rifle known as Filthy 14 with negligible cleaning:
http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/
Now that statement deserves its own quote. Then he goes on to praise Rugers. Unreal.
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Newsflash unless you are shooting thousands of rounds through your gun per range trip you don't need to clean it after every trip. They like to run wet so lube them well. Clean them once in a while.
Also to the guy with the merits of piston vs di ars... you realize only a select few designs such as the hk416 and lmt mrp outperform quality di guns. And even then it's more relevant at an academic level than a practical one... and the ruger sr556 carrier tilt special is not one of the piston options that outperform quality di guns.
Also to the guy with the merits of piston vs di ars... you realize only a select few designs such as the hk416 and lmt mrp outperform quality di guns. And even then it's more relevant at an academic level than a practical one... and the ruger sr556 carrier tilt special is not one of the piston options that outperform quality di guns.
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#1bcshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- North Of The DMZ (US border)
Well there were . In the 80's I had a Olympic Arms SGW that had a piston conversion done to it .
The FSB had the piston . The gas key on the bolt was replaced with a solid one . It worked quite well but no better than the gas system .
You clearly did not get what I was saying. I actually said that conversions are not good for AR15 as system was developed and perfected as hybrid DI system or I could say built around hybrid DI system. You're changing core component - you're changing too much. However if one really wants a conversion then it's better to go with factory made one like Ruger. It does not mean SR556 is more reliable then classic AR15, I actually don't know that. It just means I would trust it more than third party conversions. That is what I said. There's a world outside very outdated AR15 platform, you know. And it uses piston systems for a reason. So no point of comparing classic AR15 even with HK416, because HK416 is a conversion, or adapation, just have a look at the bolt and carrier. Have you noticed how the bolts/carriers are much simpler in ACR, SCARs and other purposely designed systems, even old systems like DSA-58... What does it tell you?
IMO it's very ignorant to praise something in your firearm that actually limits it capabilities. Some ppl in this thread better check their reality in which more junk in the action is better than no junk in the action. Mechanical engineering world is shaken and will never be the same after confessions of some "DI experts" here that count how many round they can fire without cleaning.
I find the main difference shows up in shorter gas systems. Rifle and mid length gas systems do not throw as much crud into the action as carbine and pistol length systems. Where the piston gas system really shines is in the shorter length systems. Throwing .300 blackout out of a pistol length piston system is much cleaner and less gassy for the shooter.
most of the reason most manufacturing places still run Direct impingment is because parts are so available.
plus some old guys would still run leaded gas if they could, new technology scares them.
most of the reason most manufacturing places still run Direct impingment is because parts are so available.
plus some old guys would still run leaded gas if they could, new technology scares them.
Actually AR is a piston system. Every semi automatic and full automatic is depending on some sort of piston.....
What people refer to a "piston" gun is where the bolt group is connected to the pistol by a push rod. There is a short stroke push rod ad there is the connected long stroke push rod. AR's "direct impingement" is still a piston system, it is just that the "piston" is connected to the bolt directly inside the carrier.
There are many push rod guns out there, they are all different in some ways in details. To say all push rod guns are worse or better is a wide generalization. But in general, conversion kits generally are not the top of the crop because they aim at the hobbyist market and those companies in general do not have a lot of R&D budget like HK and SIG to get things 90% right out of the gate.
What people refer to a "piston" gun is where the bolt group is connected to the pistol by a push rod. There is a short stroke push rod ad there is the connected long stroke push rod. AR's "direct impingement" is still a piston system, it is just that the "piston" is connected to the bolt directly inside the carrier.
There are many push rod guns out there, they are all different in some ways in details. To say all push rod guns are worse or better is a wide generalization. But in general, conversion kits generally are not the top of the crop because they aim at the hobbyist market and those companies in general do not have a lot of R&D budget like HK and SIG to get things 90% right out of the gate.
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I see you conveniently chose to ignore the oprod and piston assembly itself. I don't understand what's so complicated about an ar15 bcg... even when compared to a SCAR or ACR. Are you referring to gas rings and gas keys that you literally never touch during maintenance? All rotating bolts have a cam pin of sorts. And a retaining pin for the firing pin... some even have springs... where ars don't.
And again... other than a handful of piston guns namely an offering from LMT, the SCAR, and HK416, most piston guns perform worse than a m4/c8 in military trials... and a majority of them have inferior accuracy to the quality di guns.
